Hi, if you don t know who he is, here s a link: Thibbledorf.
My DM has asked me to build a old D&D style Dwarfen Battlerager lvl 6(pls include progression to lvl 8), he leads a squad of lvl 3 armorspike covered dwarfs who focus on grapple.
The other dwarfs were easy to build, 2 lvls of Brawler with snapping turtle style and 1 lvl armored hulk barbarian.
Now for their leader I am really struggling. First I never played or built a grappler and I m finding it hard to find the right order for grapple feats. Most of them seem to start beeing available at lvl 6.
Here are some things I would like him to have: atleast medium armor, rage, focuses on bringing the pain to his enemys with close weapons, armor spikes and a magic horned helmet while grappling them.
MY idea is atm to go lvl 2 armored Hulk for raging grappler and then the rest Brawler(maybee Exemplar demonstrating his leadership?) but I doubt this is the best way because it only seems to come online at lvl 7, where he would get 2 feats. But I m not sure he will level up, since he s a NSC.
The other option is keep barbarian at lvl 1 so I can atleast take one of the grappling chain feats at lvl 6.
I would appreciate any input, from someone with grappling experience.
Gutbuster fits well as a mutagen, but Beastmorph portion of mutagenic mauler does fit to well, either in theme or mechanics.
I'd be tempted to go with Fighter (Mutation Warrior) which would give you heavy armor, plenty of feats for grappling and better trade.
I would say that having martial flexability would be cool, especially since a varied and chaotic fighting style is pretty good, and the ability to grapple when it makes sense but do something else when it doesn't is actually really useful. When the monster is too big/strong to wrestle, Pwent would go for an eye-gouge (dirty trick) and martial flexibility is perfect for that sort of thing. Adding the Martial Master Archetype to the above (it stacks just fine) would give you that.
Alternatively you could just keeping weapon training for the close weapon group works out pretty well too.
Mutagenic Mauler doesn't automatically gain feral mutagen, he can instead take preserve organs or spontaneous healing, which while less powerful fits the flavor better.
That is true, but it has nothing to do with him getting the Beastmorph supernatural ability class feature at level 4.
Imbicatus and Dave are on to something. The Gutbusters, how his troops are called, are known for drinking a horrible brew before the battle and then fly into rage. Mutagen certainly is similar enough to rage for it to be a valid raplacement. What I don t want to do is stack Mutagen and rage, because I think it s a pretty broken combination and since they are NSC s they shouldn t take the spotlight from us PC s.
Unfortunately I am not really familiar with alchemists either. I tought Mutagen only changes stats, I don t follow on the: Mutagenic Mauler doesn't automatically gain feral mutagen, he can instead take preserve organs or spontaneous healing, which while less powerful fits the flavor better. discussion.
But where I really need help is with the grapple feats. Can someone list the essentials and at which levels to take them?
I feel I can t decide if I go the standart brawler or Mutagenic route before I know what feats are needed.
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That horrible brew is just strong dwarven alcohol. There is nothing that I recall to suggest it having any true magical abilities. If anything, it's more of a placebo effect. The 3.0 battlerager PrC was a barbarian PrC, and the 5E battlerager primal path is a barbarian path. Battleragers rage. That's what they do. I would say that any battlerager would be primarily a barbarian. I can definitely see taking some levels of mutagenic mauler fighter or maybe adding the viking archetype to that (if they don't modify the same class features).
Go Mutation Warrior, from level 3 you get a mutagen, have proficency with heavy armor and the needed number of feats.
But where I really need help is with the grapple feats. Can someone list the essentials and at which levels to take them?
If you are going to grapple, you pretty obviously need improved grapple (and therefore improved unarmed strike.)
How you build a character like this depends a lot on whether you have martial flexibility or not. If you don't, you pretty much have to invest everything possible in grappling to stay relevant and be able to employee your combat style against everything you come across (and you still get screwed by freedom of movement.) Because you have to invest all or most of your feats to be 'good' at grappling, it is difficult to have much of a fallback option.
Martial Flexibility changes this, not in that it makes it particularly easier to be a great grappler, but in that you don't have to specialize in grappling to be a pretty good grappler, you can grab a feat or two and succeed against a target that isn't particularly hard to grapple. When you come up against something that is hard to grapple, you grap different feats, perhaps going for a dirty trick or just getting some power attack and beating on them. Because you aren't grappling the things that are really hard to grapple, and you have other options that are also 'pretty good' you don't need to get every grapple bonus possible.
That horrible brew is just strong dwarven alcohol. There is nothing that I recall to suggest it having any true magical abilities. If anything, it's more of a placebo effect. The 3.0 battlerager PrC was a barbarian PrC, and the 5E battlerager primal path is a barbarian path. Battleragers rage. That's what they do. I would say that any battlerager would be primarily a barbarian. I can definitely see taking some levels of mutagenic mauler fighter or maybe adding the viking archetype to that (if they don't modify the same class features).
It was specifically stated that dwarven magical potions were based on alcohol, so magic effects and alcohol being linked is not unprecedented. Also, while being able to create a mutagen is a supernatural ability, it provides an alchemical bonus.
Neither 3.0 or 5E had mutagen as an option. The only way to gain a temporary bonus like that is barbarian rage. Pathfinder has other options, and in this system it seems to me that mutagen is a much better fit for 'drink this to get stronger' than barbarian rage is.
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Admittedly I'm not familiar with the source material, but I'm surprised no one has put forth the blood conduit bloodrager. They get improved grapple as a bonus feat at level 1, and can swift action cast spells when they grapple, allowing them to grapple and then touch of fatigue or touch of gracelessness. At level 7 he could self-buff with bull's strength. Admittedly it would be a dwarf with 12 charisma, but I think it's do-able.
Just a thought.
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That horrible brew is just strong dwarven alcohol. There is nothing that I recall to suggest it having any true magical abilities. If anything, it's more of a placebo effect. The 3.0 battlerager PrC was a barbarian PrC, and the 5E battlerager primal path is a barbarian path. Battleragers rage. That's what they do. I would say that any battlerager would be primarily a barbarian. I can definitely see taking some levels of mutagenic mauler fighter or maybe adding the viking archetype to that (if they don't modify the same class features).It was specifically stated that dwarven magical potions were based on alcohol, so magic effects and alcohol being linked is not unprecedented. Also, while being able to create a mutagen is a supernatural ability, it provides an alchemical bonus.
Neither 3.0 or 5E had mutagen as an option. The only way to gain a temporary bonus like that is barbarian rage. Pathfinder has other options, and in this system it seems to me that mutagen is a much better fit for 'drink this to get stronger' than barbarian rage is.
Except, they don't need to drink their gutbuster to rage. They drink it mainly for recreational purposes. I never heard of Pwent not raging because he ran out of gutbuster. It does kind of fit for Pathfinder rules but not near as well as rage. I would try to get both eventually with rage being prioritized over a mutagen. Especially, since the mutagen is a once a day thing.
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I just took a look at mutagens and even though it is somewhat thematic for a battlerager, it has some major drawbacks. The first is it's once a day for 10 minutes per level and takes a standard action to use. That is seriously sub-optimal. Not what you'd want to build your character's signature ability around. It's not something you will want to use except during boss fights. Second, it isn't nearly as thematic as rage (or bloodrage). Battleragers rage. It's what they do. To do it right, you need to be able to rage somehow, then if you want to emphasize gutbuster being some potent magical brew, you can throw mutagenic mauler or mutation warrior levels on top of it.
Thank you very much for everyone s input. The once a day restriction of the Mutagen has caused some serious doubts, so I ve done my first draft with my original idea: 1 lvl of Armored Hulk barbarian, rest Brawler.
His subordinates are lvl 3, build:
T Berserker of Society
0 Endurance
1 Diehard
2 Improved Grapple
3. Snapping Turtle Style
Mart.flex: Snapping Turtle CLutch
For Thibbledorf I went the Exemplar route, because it feels more like a leader rallying his troups around him, shouting tactics and singing... I can t recall the gutbusters singing but we needed more rage rounds for them, so we ve changed the Exemplars song into a skalds rage song adding another 7 rounds to the 8 they all had before.
Thibbledorf lvl 8 (1 Armored Hulk, 7 Exemplar Brwaler)
Feats:
0 Endurance
1. Diehard
3. Improved Unarmed STrike
3. Improved Grapple
5. coordinated Defense Teamwork Feat
6. Greater Grapple
7. Hamatula Strike
Mart.flex: Bodyshield / Chokehold
Now I m not unhappy with this build but I feel it has big room for improvement. I am gratefull for any suggestions
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Changing the exemplar's song into a skald's song is getting into homebrew territory. Quite frankly, exemplar doesn't really seem to fit Pwent. He inspires by rushing into combat and shredding enemies, not singing or shouting commands. I would go standard brawler or mutagenic mauler for a good gutbuster nova round a day. You'll also want extra rage in there somewhere too.
Changing the exemplar's song into a skald's song is getting into homebrew territory. Quite frankly, exemplar doesn't really seem to fit Pwent. He inspires by rushing into combat and shredding enemies, not singing or shouting commands. I would go standard brawler or mutagenic mauler for a good gutbuster nova round a day. You'll also want extra rage in there somewhere too.
You re right, chanting is not Pwents thing. The DM never asked me to build Pwent, I just used him as an example to describe what I was trying to acchieve.
The DM asked me to build a troop of dwarf Bloodragers and one commander for them, inspired by the story of the gutbusters.The subordinates were easy to build because of the few feats they had, but my lack of knowledge with highlevel grappling feats led me to make this thread, to get advice what feats a lvl 8 grappler would need. I appologize for missleading you by asking for pwent.