Which class would work best for this?


Advice


I'm thinking about a character that values life more than anything else.
With that in mind, I want him to be a melee class that focuses on incapacitating his opponents with stuff like sunder, disarm, bullrush and trip (or any other manoeuvre that doesn't do damage or does non-lethal ones).

Now, my first idea was a Monk, due to his advantage on unarmed combat. But unarmed is not the only way to do non-lethal damage... For the same reason, I was thinking a Brawler, but I never played one, so I'm not sure of his capabilities.

A fighter would be good due to the great number of feats available, which would help a lot to get Improved-feats and other stuff to help me out in combat.

A rogue could also be an idea; great skill points for social skills, some cool tricks, and would make a little bit more sense than a fighter.

In other words, someone who would try to stop a fight, rather than end one in blood.

What would you build, for such a concept? The idea is for a 5th-6th level character, or around there...


Rogues can do non lethal with their sneak attack, check out the sap master feat and you can do a ton of non lethal sneak attack damage


Brawler would fit well. There is even an archetype that gives sneak attack if you want to play it in a roguish way.


To clarify, sneak attack can be non-lethal, but only if you use a weapon that only does non-lethal damage.

Quote:
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

It's also worth noting that an enemy must be flat-footed for Sap Master to actually work, and flat-footed doesn't happen beyond the first round of combat unless you build into making an enemy flat-footed. Not easy, but possible.

Beyond that, if you deal lots of sneak attack damage you're actually still at risk for accidentally killing opponents, at least at low levels.

Personally, for this kind of build I would look at doing some grappling. You can restrain an enemy, pin, and tie them up.

Scarab Sages

Tetori monks make the best grapplers. That would be a great way to subdue enemies without harming them.


Sarenrae(sp) has tons of traits and feats for her followers to get non-lethal damage with weapons with no penalties.
Merciful weapon magic property makes any weapon non-lethal.

In the end combat is resolved when one side no longer fights the other. Combat maneuvers don't do this (unless enemies surrender once their weapon is gone). Also, unless your entire party is on board, or you can one-shot enemies, they'll be taking lethal damage, so doing non-lethal is better at keeping people alive rather than maneuvers.


The main thing that worries me about manoeuvres is against non-humanoid creatures... a fighter might surrender, but a owlbear would't...

Non-lethal damage worries me; if I'm not the one last-hitting him, to KO him, most of the time people will just get killed by the rest of the party.

I do like the idea of grappling and pinning down enemies. It's easy to KO them then, and to tie them up. So you'd say Monk for a grapple build? Isn't Brawler better at it?

Which feats should I get for a grapple build?


Chess Pwn wrote:

Sarenrae(sp) has tons of traits and feats for her followers to get non-lethal damage with weapons with no penalties.

Merciful weapon magic property makes any weapon non-lethal.

In the end combat is resolved when one side no longer fights the other. Combat maneuvers don't do this (unless enemies surrender once their weapon is gone). Also, unless your entire party is on board, or you can one-shot enemies, they'll be taking lethal damage, so doing non-lethal is better at keeping people alive rather than maneuvers.

I agree with this, except in the case of Grapple. Once you can tie someone up, especially when you can grapple, pin, and tie someone up in one round maneuvers are very viable. It however is the only maneuver that is so effective.

Scarab Sages

Not better than the Tetori, no. Once a tetori has you, you're not escaping.


Bober wrote:
Non-lethal damage worries me; if I'm not the one last-hitting him, to KO him, most of the time people will just get killed by the rest of the party.

It doesn't actually matter with non-lethal damage if you're the last one to hit them. Non-lethal damage causes you to fall unconscious when your current HP hits equal your non-lethal damage (technically staggered when equal, and unconscious when current hp drops below total non-lethal damage). So at higher levels you get a few strong hits of non-lethal damage there is little risk of your allies outright killing someone. At low levels, it can be risky because one solid crit can take a creature from nearly full health to dead, non-lehtal damage being irrelevant in this case.


I'd be leaning to brawler for this. While you probably won't end up as good at any one thing, the ability to adapt to changing situations can be worth quite a few lost numbers.

A weak wizard big bad? go for a grapple. Oops, he has freedom of movement, maybe switch to stunning fist or dirty trick. He is really an undead? Ok, no need to value life, I'll use some power attack.


Bober wrote:
Non-lethal damage worries me; if I'm not the one last-hitting him, to KO him, most of the time people will just get killed by the rest of the party.

On that note, depending on how far you are taking this you should definitely talk to the other other players.

If your character is just worried about not personally delivering a killing blow, no big deal. If though you expect the entire party to conform to you ethos, always taking prisoners etc. etc. then you really need to make sure the other players are into it and will make characters that are compatible with that concept (for example, your guy and a Paladin of Ragathiel probably shouldn't be hanging out together.)


Dave Justus wrote:
Bober wrote:
Non-lethal damage worries me; if I'm not the one last-hitting him, to KO him, most of the time people will just get killed by the rest of the party.

On that note, depending on how far you are taking this you should definitely talk to the other other players.

If your character is just worried about not personally delivering a killing blow, no big deal. If though you expect the entire party to conform to you ethos, always taking prisoners etc. etc. then you really need to make sure the other players are into it and will make characters that are compatible with that concept (for example, your guy and a Paladin of Ragathiel probably shouldn't be hanging out together.)

I already thought about it. My character will not personally kill anyone, but since he values life he will try to convince the party not to kill. He will oppose to them if they kill without a reason (e.g. if their life is not at risk), but he will not prevent them from killing if their life is at risk.

He will try to make amend for their killings, by helping other people for free, and stuff like that... In other words, it won't be a big issue for them, as long as they don't kill the ones I incapacitate...


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Bober wrote:

I already thought about it. My character will not personally kill anyone, but since he values life he will try to convince the party not to kill. He will oppose to them if they kill without a reason (e.g. if their life is not at risk), but he will not prevent them from killing if their life is at risk.

He will try to make amend for their killings, by helping other people for free, and stuff like that... In other words, it won't be a big issue for them, as long as they don't kill the ones I incapacitate...

Those sound like potentially pretty big issues to me.

Killing without life being at risk is moderately common in games. Many times you will find characters finishing off unconscious enemies as just one example.

In a cooperative group game, you helping someone for free often either means everyone has to help someone for free or several players don't do anything while you help out.

And if you aren't killing those you incapacitate you are either letting them go or keeping them prisoner, both of which can be a risk and extra trouble for a party.

Like I said, you should definitely talk with the other players and make sure they are cool with all of this. Failing to do that has a pretty good chance of leading to party conflict that can ruin a game (or even a friendship if it gets out of hand.)


Ok, i've been reading the Totori, and it seems great for my concept. I was wondering if you have any suggestion about which traits to pick to gain some advantage.. I'm thinking something to improve my INIT, but if you have something in mind that fits the build, let me know!


Dave Justus wrote:
Bober wrote:

I already thought about it. My character will not personally kill anyone, but since he values life he will try to convince the party not to kill. He will oppose to them if they kill without a reason (e.g. if their life is not at risk), but he will not prevent them from killing if their life is at risk.

He will try to make amend for their killings, by helping other people for free, and stuff like that... In other words, it won't be a big issue for them, as long as they don't kill the ones I incapacitate...

Those sound like potentially pretty big issues to me.

Killing without life being at risk is moderately common in games. Many times you will find characters finishing off unconscious enemies as just one example.

In a cooperative group game, you helping someone for free often either means everyone has to help someone for free or several players don't do anything while you help out.

And if you aren't killing those you incapacitate you are either letting them go or keeping them prisoner, both of which can be a risk and extra trouble for a party.

Like I said, you should definitely talk with the other players and make sure they are cool with all of this. Failing to do that has a pretty good chance of leading to party conflict that can ruin a game (or even a friendship if it gets out of hand.)

I will talk to them for sure, but I don't think it will be a big issue.. we have a couple of good characters already, including a paladin. So killing for no reason is not their first pick usually... As for helping for free, it can be often done in off-time, or simply by donating items or money. A poor family might need some food, the local militia could use some new weapons, and stuff like that... I don't like solo-missions or dragging players behind me for my own gain, so I try to find other ways to do good without wasting everyones time

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