| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hey all so I was wondering if we could get an FAQ or a general ruling on something related to the Warlock Mystic Bolts:
I'll list the description here and note the parts I find most important:
Mystic Bolts (Su)
A warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe. A melee mystic bolt requires the target to be within reach, and a ranged mystic bolt is a ranged attack with a range of 30 feet. A mystic bolt deals 1d6 points of damage plus 1 for every 4 vigilante levels the warlock has.
The warlock must choose one type of damage for her mystic bolt: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Attacking with a mystic bolt takes the place of one of the warlock’s normal attacks, and she can make a full attack using mystic bolts. The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting (with each hand creating one mystic bolt) and feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks (unless they’re excluded from that feat, such as with Power Attack). Weapon Focus (ray) doesn’t apply to mystic bolts, but a warlock can take Weapon Focus (mystic bolt) and apply it to both melee and ranged mystic bolts.
Creating a mystic bolt requires the hand to be free, but the bolt appears only briefly, so a warlock using mystic bolts has a free hand any time she isn’t attacking with a mystic bolt.
The warlock threatens with a mystic bolt, but only if she has a hand free. Because mystic bolts are impermanent, a spell that targets a single weapon (like magic weapon) can’t affect it, nor can a mystic bolt be made with magic weapon special abilities. Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts.
At 7th level and every 6 vigilante levels thereafter, the warlock chooses another damage type from the list above. Each time she creates a mystic bolt, she can have it use any one of the damage types she has selected.
This ability replaces vigilante specialization.
So basically the follow up:
Can I deliver a held charge of a Touch Spell during a Mystic Bolt Melee delivery?
It specifically calls the ability a touch, says that it is treated as a light weapon for attacks (though it is not a weapon), and it specifically only does this to allow feats/abilities to work with Mystic Bolts.
Basically, I am trying to see if I need a 1 level dip in Magus for Spellcombat or if I have to spring for the second level for Spellstrike as well.
On top of the above:
Does the level 3 ability of the Warlock Piercing Bolts allow delivery of touch spells?
Piercing Bolts (Ex)At 3rd level, the warlock can choose one mystic bolt per round to be a touch attack. This turns a melee mystic bolt into a melee touch attack or a ranged mystic bolt into a ranged touch attack. At 5th level, the warlock can treat all of her mystic bolts as touch attacks.
This ability replaces unshakable.
In this case it explicitly calls them Melee touch attacks, but mostly for the purposes of removing the need to go past armor.
I will argue that Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons are still subject to armor but are allowed for Touch Spell Deliveries:
Touch Spells in CombatMany spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
So there's the whole schtick.
Remember that it specifically isn't a weapon, it is only used that way for attacks the Warlock makes and feats and abilities (so that it works with TWF).
Overall I find Mystic Bolts to be pretty weak, but I am curious what the thoughts are on this subject.
I think everyone can agree that either way there should probably be some clarification, given the very specifically different reading of the ability from standard abilities that replicate it's behavior (for instance like the MindBlades weapon creation).
Thank you in advance!
Bump :D
I know I haven't used the forums in a while, but the closest post I could find on here is one here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tk61
A few people in that thread saw it my way (or even took it a step further with the way they read Normal Attack).
BUMPITY BUMP BUMP
I am just looking for a RAW general consensus here.
Surely someone is up to giving their interpretation of the rules!
can't hold the charge.
can't hold the charge.
Why can't I hold the charge? The charge is a spell, the Mystic Bolts are a supernatural ability.
My question wasn't "can I hold the charge" it was "can I deliver a Mystic Bolt in tandem with a charge".
I can definitely still hold a charge and use Mystic Bolts at the same time, the latter is up for debate.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
Mystic bolts can't be used to deliver a held spell, and I believe that even spellstrike wouldn't help.
"In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.”"
I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
Mystic bolts can't be used to deliver a held spell, and I believe that even spellstrike wouldn't help."In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.”"
So I think you missed the greater point of my post. I fully understand the normal limitations for weapon use and here is what I want to point out based on how it's very explicitly written.
I don't know what you are specifically quoting here but the ability itself doesn't use them as weapons.
You use them as weapons for the purposes of attacks only otherwise the ability is not a weapon.
The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting (with each hand creating one mystic bolt) and feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks (unless they’re excluded from that feat, such as with Power Attack). Weapon Focus (ray) doesn’t apply to mystic bolts, but a warlock can take Weapon Focus (mystic bolt) and apply it to both melee and ranged mystic bolts.
Notice here how it explicitly only allows you to utilize the bolts as if they were weapons for the purposes of making attacks, but they are not weapons.
I don't even need spell strike, because the standard melee Mystic Bolt requires me to touch my opponent, it is specifically magic energy, and it is only treated as a weapon for the purpose of making attacks (though it is not a weapon).
I wouldn't bring this up if it had a two sentence response.
The other thread I linked in my second comment touches on the points I am making here (there was a lot of discussion on how Mystic Bolts actually works in that thread).
If you are going to say that it works a certain way I need you to cite the portion of Mystic Bolts that invalidates what I am talking about, instead of saying that it just doesn't work.
RAW I believe that they can be used in tandem, as it requires a touch attack, it is not a physical weapon, it is not a spell, and a charge can be held in the same hand that also has a bolt in it.
There's the FAQ I was quoting.
Also we have a FAQ that delivering a held charge via touch attack is a standard action. Thus it can't be combined with any other action. Now there's the deliver held charge via US, but you aren't making any of those either.
So using any option that isn't the "deliver held charge via touch attack" or "deliver held charge via US" isn't going to deliver the held charge. That means you mystic bolts can't be used to deliver the held charge.
Now spellstrike lets you deliver a held charge through a weapon, similar to US option. But mystic bolts don't work for spellstrike because, it says with a weapon, which is called out in the FAQ as not working with special abilities.
So if you use mystic bolts and are doing a touch attack to deliver them, your spell isn't discharged because you aren't using a valid option to deliver a held charge.
There's the FAQ I was quoting.
Also we have a FAQ that delivering a held charge via touch attack is a standard action. Thus it can't be combined with any other action. Now there's the deliver held charge via US, but you aren't making any of those either.
So using any option that isn't the "deliver held charge via touch attack" or "deliver held charge via US" isn't going to deliver the held charge. That means you mystic bolts can't be used to deliver the held charge.
Now spellstrike lets you deliver a held charge through a weapon, similar to US option. But mystic bolts don't work for spellstrike because, it says with a weapon, which is called out in the FAQ as not working with special abilities.
So if you use mystic bolts and are doing a touch attack to deliver them, your spell isn't discharged because you aren't using a valid option to deliver a held charge.
The FAQ is specifically talking about the action to deliver a touch spell.
using any option that isn't the deliver a held charge via touch attack
Which Mystic Bolts specifically is a touch attack, because I am touching my opponent to deliver the bolt.
Also at level 3 I gain Piercing Bolts which explicitly changes it to a melee touch attack
So if I use Spell Combat from a 1 level dip in Magus I can cast a spell, then deliver that spell via my normal attack with a Mystic Bolt since it IS a melee touch attack.
To say otherwise would be to argue that a melee touch attack wouldn't deliver a spell normally, which it absolutely does.
No, a melee touch attack for 1 thing doesn't count as spending a standard action to deliver a held charge via touch attack. You are using the Attack with mystic bolts action, which isn't a legal way to deliver held charges.
actions are actions and can't be shortcutted. like having 10 wands all with the same command word. it takes a standard action to say that word to activate 1 wand.
Same here, just cause you are making a touch attack (saying the command word) if you aren't doing it with the action for the result it's not happening (not using a standard action, and it only trigger 1 wand, not all 10.)
No, a melee touch attack for 1 thing doesn't count as spending a standard action to deliver a held charge via touch attack. You are using the Attack with mystic bolts action, which isn't a legal way to deliver held charges.
actions are actions and can't be shortcutted. like having 10 wands all with the same command word. it takes a standard action to say that word to activate 1 wand.
Same here, just cause you are making a touch attack (saying the command word) if you aren't doing it with the action for the result it's not happening (not using a standard action, and it only trigger 1 wand, not all 10.)
You get a free touch attack as part of the spell, which it explicitly says under the FAQ you listed. The "held charge" is delivered in the same round it is created.
It also costs me no action to create a bolt and all it requires to deliver it is a normal attack, which a touch attack is. Thus, why can't I just deliver a bolt as part of the free touch attack that is given under the spell when I cast it (except against normal AC in the case of the non-Piercing bolts attack)
Lastly and most importantly it says if I touch "anything or anyone" the spell is discharged. That doesn't require an additional action. So if I have a charge of a spell, and then deliver a touch attack of some other kind to a target, the spell goes off RAW.
Well it's obvious your not actually interested in how this works but just want to hear people agree with you, so I'm done here. Good luck finding people that agree with your view and happy gaming. :D
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So if I have a charge of a spell, and then deliver a touch attack of some other kind to a target, the spell goes off RAW.
Just because something is a melee touch attack, that doesn't mean you are touching your target. That is confusing two different terms.
Piercing Bolts makes it so your energy dagger-shaped mystic bolt bypasses armor (a touch attack). It does not necessarily mean that you actually lay hands on your opponent.
Well it's obvious your not actually interested in how this works but just want to hear people agree with you, so I'm done here. Good luck finding people that agree with your view and happy gaming. :D
I wasn't looking for agreement, I was looking for someone that actually took the time to read all the specific rule sets this involves.
You came in here and read 2 seconds, skipped multiple portions where I had to explain it again, dropped off a 4 word response, and then was like "oops read it wrong".
Now that I presented the "touching anything or anyone" portion of the Touch Spells rules portion to back my point (which was in the original post to begin with) you just throw your hands up and say "You just want people to agree with you!"
No I want someone to read the post I took a diligent amount of time putting together with various rulesets pulled from all over the Core and UI and take a time to come up with a ruling based on that.
You just want someone to thank you for your minimal effort of "this is how I think this works"
So if I have a charge of a spell, and then deliver a touch attack of some other kind to a target, the spell goes off RAW.Just because something is a melee touch attack, that doesn't mean you are touching your target. That is confusing two different terms.
Piercing Bolts makes it so your energy dagger-shaped mystic bolt bypasses armor (a touch attack). It does not necessarily mean that you actually lay hands on your opponent.
But the first line of Mystic Bolts specifically says this:
A warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe.
Thus my point.
Well it's obvious your not actually interested in how this works but just want to hear people agree with you, so I'm done here. Good luck finding people that agree with your view and happy gaming. :DI wasn't looking for agreement, I was looking for someone that actually took the time to read all the specific rule sets this involves.
You came in here and read 2 seconds, skipped multiple portions where I had to explain it again, dropped off a 4 word response, and then was like "oops read it wrong".
Now that I presented the "touching anything or anyone" portion of the Touch Spells rules portion to back my point (which was in the original post to begin with) you just throw your hands up and say "You just want people to agree with you!"
No I want someone to read the post I took a diligent amount of time putting together with various rulesets pulled from all over the Core and UI and take a time to come up with a ruling based on that.
You just want someone to thank you for your minimal effort of "this is how I think this works"
haha. Yes, the first one was cause I thought the title was asking if you can hold the charge of your mystic bolts. I'll give you that that answer hadn't read everything in your post.
But I've quoted multiple FAQs, that hardly seems that I've given it no effort or research.I already address the touching anything or anyone! It's handled the same way as wands and other command word activated items. It has the example that "oh it's just a word so watch out!" but then tells you it's a standard action to deliberately say the word to activate one item. So the rules don't really care about what you're doing, but what you're not. You're not taking one of the legal actions to deliver a held charge, thus the charge does not get delivered.
If you think you've found a tricky way to do two different actions at the same time you're probably not in the right.
Can you spell combat with a Mystic Bolt?
Yes. You cast a spell with casting time of 1 standard action, and may attack with the mystic bolt (which counts as a light or one-handed weapon that can replace attacks).
Can you use the Mystic Bolt to deliver the touch of a held charge?
Not without spellstrike. Spell combat allows you to cast the spell and attack with a weapon, but it does not allow you to deliver the spell with a weapon (as spellstrike allows).
That's how I'd rule it anyway. Admittedly not a master of Magus or anything.
haha. Yes, the first one was cause I thought the title was asking if you can hold the charge of your mystic bolts. I'll give you that that answer hadn't read everything in your post.
But I've quoted multiple FAQs, that hardly seems that I've given it no effort or research.
The FAQs you quoted were in reference to delivering touch attacks outside of combat, or delivering touch attacks as part of a held charge.
They do not have any bearing on whether or not touch attacks are delivered via other actions, because those are specifically for traditional touch attack deliveries.
Otherwise why would the lines "anything or anyone" even be in the section at all?
I already address the touching anything or anyone! It's handled the same way as wands and other command word activated items. It has the example that "oh it's just a word so watch out!" but then tells you it's a standard action to deliberately say the word to activate one item.
Yes it specifically calls that out as an action. It does NOT call out the action of touching anything or anyone in any other context.
Also the two are completely separate in terms of how they are related, you can't use that for evidence anymore than I can use the US/NA as evidence for mine (though MB reads exactly like US)
So the rules don't really care about what you're doing, but what you're not. You're not taking one of the legal actions to deliver a held charge, thus the charge does not get delivered.
If you think you've found a tricky way to do two different actions at the same time you're probably not in the right.
Oh jesus.
It isn't an action to create a Mystic bolt, and delivering one is part of another attack which it explicitly says under the ability
I am not "robbing actions" or whatever you want to call it, I am taking my normal allowed attack as part of the touch spell, and creating a mystic bolt as part of that attack. There isn't two actions, it's ONE action.
Can you spell combat with a Mystic Bolt?
Yes. You cast a spell with casting time of 1 standard action, and may attack with the mystic bolt (which counts as a light or one-handed weapon that can replace attacks).
Can you use the Mystic Bolt to deliver the touch of a held charge?
Not without spellstrike. Spell combat allows you to cast the spell and attack with a weapon, but it does not allow you to deliver the spell with a weapon (as spellstrike allows).
That's how I'd rule it anyway. Admittedly not a master of Magus or anything.
And I'm pretty sure via the new FAQ that you can't spellstrike with mystic bolts.
Can you spell combat with a Mystic Bolt?
Yes. You cast a spell with casting time of 1 standard action, and may attack with the mystic bolt (which counts as a light or one-handed weapon that can replace attacks).
Can you use the Mystic Bolt to deliver the touch of a held charge?
Not without spellstrike. Spell combat allows you to cast the spell and attack with a weapon, but it does not allow you to deliver the spell with a weapon (as spellstrike allows).
That's how I'd rule it anyway. Admittedly not a master of Magus or anything.
My argument here would be that because I do not have an actual weapon (it is only treated as weapons for the purposes of making attacks) and because it specifically requires me to touch my opponent that I do not need the 2 levels of Magus and only the 1.
Though I think the former is a fair/reasonable ruling, I just don't think it is RAW given how Mystic Bolts is written.
The ability itself is completely unique in how it is put together (otherwise why wouldn't you just wield it like a normal weapon such as the Psionic class that creates Psychic weapons).
It seems worded in such a way to explicitly allow what I am talking about.
Also Mystic Bolts is incredibly weak, so this would be a way to make it a little better in my eyes.
I am not "robbing actions" or whatever you want to call it, I am taking my normal allowed attack as part of the touch spell, and creating a mystic bolt as part of that attack. There isn't two actions, it's ONE.
You're trying to get 1 action. deliver mystic bolt, which is done as an attack replacement action, to also count as the standard action deliver touch spell.
You're trying to get 2 actions worth of stuff out of 1 action.Also if you're trying to say that off of the free touch attack you get from casting the spell that round you're turning that into a mystic bolt that is also incorrect. Mystic bolts can sub in for attacks like standard action attack and full attack attacks. Not for the free touch you get for casting a spell.
And I'm pretty sure via the new FAQ that you can't spellstrike with mystic bolts.Can you spell combat with a Mystic Bolt?
Yes. You cast a spell with casting time of 1 standard action, and may attack with the mystic bolt (which counts as a light or one-handed weapon that can replace attacks).
Can you use the Mystic Bolt to deliver the touch of a held charge?
Not without spellstrike. Spell combat allows you to cast the spell and attack with a weapon, but it does not allow you to deliver the spell with a weapon (as spellstrike allows).
That's how I'd rule it anyway. Admittedly not a master of Magus or anything.
Did you even read Mystic Bolts?
attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting (with each hand creating one mystic bolt) and feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks
It specifically has a clause to allow it to work with anything that normally allows weapon use.
Also if you're trying to say that off of the free touch attack you get from casting the spell that round you're turning that into a mystic bolt that is also incorrect. Mystic bolts can sub in for attacks like standard action attack and full attack attacks. Not for the free touch you get for casting a spell.
Based on what?
Straight from Mystic Bolts:
Attacking with a mystic bolt takes the place of one of the warlock’s normal attacks
So if you can tell me why a touch attack isn't a "normal attack" which I fail to see a literal definition anywhere.
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Can you spell combat with a Mystic Bolt?
Yes. You cast a spell with casting time of 1 standard action, and may attack with the mystic bolt (which counts as a light or one-handed weapon that can replace attacks).
Can you use the Mystic Bolt to deliver the touch of a held charge?
Not without spellstrike. Spell combat allows you to cast the spell and attack with a weapon, but it does not allow you to deliver the spell with a weapon (as spellstrike allows).
That's how I'd rule it anyway. Admittedly not a master of Magus or anything.
I'd agree it could work with spellstrike. Bolts may not be "a weapon," but I would accept that they are "any weapon."
I'd agree it could work with spellstrike. Bolts may not be "a weapon," but I would accept that they are "any weapon."Can you spell combat with a Mystic Bolt?
Yes. You cast a spell with casting time of 1 standard action, and may attack with the mystic bolt (which counts as a light or one-handed weapon that can replace attacks).
Can you use the Mystic Bolt to deliver the touch of a held charge?
Not without spellstrike. Spell combat allows you to cast the spell and attack with a weapon, but it does not allow you to deliver the spell with a weapon (as spellstrike allows).
That's how I'd rule it anyway. Admittedly not a master of Magus or anything.
Not that it matters, but MB specifically counts as a weapon for all feats and abilities (which is under the first paragraph of Mystic Bolts)
So if you can tell me why a touch attack isn't a "normal attack" which I fail to see a literal definition anywhere.A free touch attack is not a normal attack because it is 1. free and 2. touch.
But that is not defined as a normal attack.
Normal attack isn't defined at all in fact, so I would quantify any attack that requires an attack roll to be a "normal attack"
With your reading, you can't deliver Mystic Bolts as part of an AoO which it specifically says you can.
In fact this reads exactly like the portion under Combat for melee attacks in regards to feats like Cleave which it calls "a standard action that allows an attack but is not using the attack action".
So I can't cleave with the ability as written, but I fail to see how a touch attack qualifies for that (especially since I can substitute the free touch attack for an Unarmed Strike or Natural attack).
So if you can tell me why a touch attack isn't a "normal attack" which I fail to see a literal definition anywhere.A free touch attack is not a normal attack because it is 1. free and 2. touch.
To reiterate my point:
1. I replace my free touch attack as part of the spell with an Unarmed Strike instead, which is allowed via Touch Attacks for spells
2. Per the Mystic Bolts "you can replace any of your normal attacks with Mystic Bolts"
3. I replace the US I was just about to make with my Mystic Bolt.
Why isn't the above legal as I can replace any normal attack with a Mystic Bolt?
I am not trying to get a free touch AC attack with Mystic Bolts if that's what people are thinking.
And I'm pretty sure via the new FAQ that you can't spellstrike with mystic bolts.Can you spell combat with a Mystic Bolt?
Yes. You cast a spell with casting time of 1 standard action, and may attack with the mystic bolt (which counts as a light or one-handed weapon that can replace attacks).
Can you use the Mystic Bolt to deliver the touch of a held charge?
Not without spellstrike. Spell combat allows you to cast the spell and attack with a weapon, but it does not allow you to deliver the spell with a weapon (as spellstrike allows).
That's how I'd rule it anyway. Admittedly not a master of Magus or anything.
Maybe I'm looking at a different FAQ then you, but it says "almost always" (it also includes mystic bolts as being an exception to abilities that modify action usage) and mystic bolts say that they can be used with "abilities that apply to weapon attacks".
Not saying you're wrong (I truly dislike Magi because they have so many FAQ's and Errata just for their key abilities), just saying that I'm getting a different interpretation.
So if you can tell me why a touch attack isn't a "normal attack" which I fail to see a literal definition anywhere.A free touch attack is not a normal attack because it is 1. free and 2. touch.To reiterate my point:
I replace my free touch attack as part of the spell with an Unarmed Strike instead.
Per the Mystic Bolts "you can replace any of your normal attacks with Mystic Bolts"
I replace the US I was just about to make with my Mystic Bolt.
Why isn't the above legal as I can replace any normal attack with a Mystic Bolt?
I am not trying to get a free touch AC attack with Mystic Bolts if that's what people are thinking.
Because you are not attacking with an unarmed strike or a natural attack (as per the Delivering Touch spell rules go).
I understand that you are still "touching" them with the mystic bolt attack, but you are not touching them with the spell but rather the energy of the attack... if that makes any sense.
Because you are not attacking with an unarmed strike or a natural attack (as per the Delivering Touch spell rules go).
I understand that you are still "touching" them with the mystic bolt attack, but you are not touching them with the spell but rather the energy of the attack... if that makes any sense.
Right but specifically under Mystic Bolts:
"You can replace any of your normal attacks with Mystic Bolts"
so the order goes like this:
1. I cast touch spell
2. I choose to replace the free touch with an Unarmed Strike (which is a normal attack)
3. I replace my Unarmed Strike with Mystic Bolt (which Mystic Bolt explicitly allows)
So why is that not legal. I realize it is not an unarmed strike what it is though is a way to replace any of my normal attacks.
An Unarmed Strike is a normal attack. Why can't it be replaced with a Mystic Bolt?
I understand you are "touching" them
I fail to see why you put this in quotes. I am touching them, the ability says I'm touching them.
If you don't like that reading that's fine, but don't make it sound like the ability says "you are but you aren't touching them" it says "you touch your foe".
Your interpretation wouldn't be RAW.
You can't deliver the spell with an unarmed strike until the next round when you're holding the charge. The spell give you a free touch attack, not a free unarmed strike. So you couldn't deliver the charge through your strike til the next round.
So that's why your scenario doesn't work.
So with that reading I can deliver it next time I make an attack with a Mystic Bolt.
Or in the case of Spell Combat, on my attack (not the touch) in the same round as the spell.
Because you are not attacking with an unarmed strike or a natural attack (as per the Delivering Touch spell rules go).
I understand that you are still "touching" them with the mystic bolt attack, but you are not touching them with the spell but rather the energy of the attack... if that makes any sense.
Right but specifically under Mystic Bolts:
"You can replace any of your normal attacks with Mystic Bolts"
so the order goes like this:
1. I cast touch spell
2. I choose to replace the free touch with an Unarmed Strike (which is a normal attack)
3. I replace my Unarmed Strike with Mystic Bolt (which Mystic Bolt explicitly allows)
So why is that not legal. I realize it is not an unarmed strike what it is though is a way to replace any of my normal attacks.
An Unarmed Strike is a normal attack. Why can't it be replaced with a Mystic Bolt?
I understand you are "touching" themI fail to see why you put this in quotes. I am touching them, the ability says I'm touching them.
If you don't like that reading that's fine, but don't make it sound like the ability says "you are but you aren't touching them" it says "you touch your foe".
Your interpretation wouldn't be RAW.
Oh! You're allowed to replace an unarmed strike with a mystic bolt (per raw of what mystic bolt says), but your mystic bolt is still not an unarmed strike (per raw of what mystic bolt says; "a weapon").
Also, you're touching your foe with the mystic bolt. The quotes were there because it is a "you are but your aren't". This game isn't as black and white as you think.
That's like me saying "I touched my foe with a dagger, can my touch spell be delivered through it?" You are "touching" them, but you cannot deliver the touch spell.
Oh! You're allowed to replace an unarmed strike with a mystic bolt (per raw of what mystic bolt says), but your mystic bolt is still not an unarmed strike (per raw of what mystic bolt says; "a weapon").
Also, you're touching your foe with the mystic bolt. The quotes were there because it is a "you are but your aren't". This game isn't as black and white as you think.
That's like me saying "I touched my foe with a dagger, can my touch spell be delivered through it?" You are "touching" them, but you cannot deliver the touch spell.
But that's not what the ability says
A warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe.
See how the "shooting a bolt" reads, I shoot a bolt at a target and it hits.
How does the Melee attack work though? It says "A Warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by touching her foe".
It doesn't say the bolt touches her for, it says the Warlock touches the foe and the projectile gets slung as a result. So to me, the attack emanates from the hand and it's specifically written like that.
At least that's how it reads to me.
Oh! You're allowed to replace an unarmed strike with a mystic bolt (per raw of what mystic bolt says), but your mystic bolt is still not an unarmed strike (per raw of what mystic bolt says; "a weapon").
Also, you're touching your foe with the mystic bolt. The quotes were there because it is a "you are but your aren't". This game isn't as black and white as you think.
That's like me saying "I touched my foe with a dagger, can my touch spell be delivered through it?" You are "touching" them, but you cannot deliver the touch spell.
But that's not what the ability says
A warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe.See how the "shooting a bolt" reads, I shoot a bolt at a target and it hits.
How does the Melee attack work though? It says "A Warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by touching her foe".
It doesn't say the bolt touches her for, it says the Warlock touches the foe and the projectile gets slung as a result.
At least that's how it reads to me.
You missed the part that makes it a weapon. I bolded it for you.
Anyways, I told you how I'd rule it. I explained why I would rule it as such. I have nothing else I can say without this becoming circular.
Basically what it comes down to is that a charge can only be delivered via a touch attack, unarmed strike, or natural attack during combat according to the rules.
Now, even though your mystic bolt is described as touching them, it is not considered one of these things above, so it doesn't work.
That is the best way to explain what I'm trying to say.
Thank you.
You missed the part that makes it a weapon. I bolded it for you.
Anyways, I told you how I'd rule it. I explained why I would rule it as such. I have nothing else I can say without this becoming circular.
Well it isn't actually a weapon, it's just treated that way for attacks (so you don't provoke and can use feats/abilities with it), but I respect your ruling. Just trying to argue the RAW.
I think everyone can agree this ability was written extremely weirdly. If it was just meant to be an elemental weapon with different ranges. If it was intended to read that way I feel like there would have been a simpler way to write it.
Basically what it comes down to is that a charge can only be delivered via a touch attack, unarmed strike, or natural attack during combat according to the rules.
Now, even though your mystic bolt is described as touching them, it is not considered one of these things above, so it doesn't work.
But again the line from Touch Spells:
If you touch anything or anyone
Why does this not qualify as that line?
By the way you left off the rest of the words imperative to that ability
A warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe.
So in the first portion it describes the delivery as part of a "bolt" that the Warlock shoots.
"by" defines the HOW of what makes the previous occur.
So BY "shooting a bolt"
or BY "touching her foe"
The second part defines the subject of the touching to be her
Why define that if it's not to explicitly define it as the Warlock touching her foe.
I mean read that statement "Warlock touching her foe", it's completely independent and it is the "by" portion of the sentence.
I wouldn't argue the Bolt was a touch attack, because she is SHOOTING the bolt, in the second portion she is TOUCHING her foe. Why not "Swinging the bolt"? Why clearly define it as a touch.
Because of Mythic Bolt's text that says this
The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons
Now are you starting to see what I'm talking about? The ability is explicitly worded this way.
It is not a weapon, it is only treated that way for the purpose of attacks and they are only treated AS THOUGH they were light one handed weapons
What other attack follows those rules?
Unarmed Strikes.
Why? Because they both require physical contact with the opponent (which means they are vulnerable to things like Contact poison).
Because sometimes the developers can't think of every possible rules interaction when writing text? Look, it says that it strikes as a light one handed weapon.
Taking your own logic, if it was it intended to work that way wouldn't it say that it strikes as an unarmed strike? Or a touch attack?
It doesn't get a touch attack because then you would get to go against touch AC
and they didn't do Unarmed strike because the damage is 1d6 energy (and then you'd get US and the energy)
So they made this ability that's supposed to be your "touch spell weapon enhancer"
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I mean, you could take the fact that everyone who's posted here has read it to not work to mean that perhaps you're being pedantic and/or ignoring conflicting text that makes it so that it doesn't work.
Anyways, I've made my case as have several others. Listen or don't and do as you will. Just make sure to not spring it on a GM and make sure to explain that there is disagreement on how it works.
I mean, you could take the fact that everyone who's posted here has read it to not work to mean that perhaps you're being pedantic and/or ignoring conflicting text that makes it so that it doesn't work.
Anyways, I've made my case as have several others. Listen or don't and do as you will. Just make sure to not spring it on a GM and make sure to explain that there is disagreement on how it works.
Yeah this specific thread, but the thread I listed in comment 2 has several people agreeing with me exactly as I describe it to work
I think the general consensus from this forum so far has been "this guy is new and doesn't know how stuff works"
When in fact I have been playing pathfinder since release, have had this account since 2010, and have a firm understanding of the rules since their initial inception in 3.0
You can call me "pedantic" all you want, but in reality just because people in this thread are leaning a particular way means pretty much nothing in terms of argument land (because no one in this thread has done research or exploration on this ability like I have since I poised this question weeks ago and got no response til today).
Am I a rules lawyer? sure. Am I looking at this from a skewed perspective? maybe.
But do I feel anyone has argued their point with anything other than their personal speculation and bias of reading the rules and not the TRUE RAW reading? no.
Everyone here thinks this would be too good.
In all honesty? It's worse than any Magus. It's worse than the Cabalist archetype (which gets all the same abilities but no Mystic Bolts and bleed damage).
So I tried to find a reading that suited a reasonable premise and found no conflictions with the RAW.
So far everyone has just gone well "well I just would rule this way, take it or leave it", and that's fine but that isn't RAW.
My GM has already approved it and I find it to be a garbage tier ability if it doesn't have this (it's a bad cantrip honestly if you can't utilize it in some way).
YMMV of course, but for the most part the consensus hasn't necessarily been against, just that it requires Spellstrike to work
I agree that being able to deliver by default probably wouldn't be overpowered, but this is the rules forum so people look what the rules say first. The rules say mystic bolt is considered a weapon and normally you can't deliver touch spells with a weapon. Of course spellstrike should allow you to do so.
I understand that you argue it isn't really a weapon, but I disagree with your logic. We have to assume it is considered a weapon for everything related to the attack, because every other interpretation would raise more questions than it answers. If the bolt was only supposed to be a weapon in some ways but not others (like only for feats) the language used would be "for the purpose of [...]". But the way it is written there are no exceptions. Any time you attack with your bolt it is considered a weapon and touching your opponent is obviously an attack (includes an attack roll).
Creating a mystic bolt requires the hand to be free, but the bolt appears only briefly, so a warlock using mystic bolts has a free hand any time she isn't attacking with a mystic bolt.
Basically the moment you use your mystic bolt, the weapon manifests in your hand and causes any spells you may be holding to discharge before you get a chance to deliver them together with the bolt.
Basically the moment you use your mystic bolt, the weapon manifests in your hand and causes any spells you may be holding to discharge before you get a chance to deliver them together with the bolt.
Except there is an FAQ for this type of thing here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qnr
Touch Spells: Does wearing a gauntlet, cestus, or similar glove-like weapon count as "touching anything" for the purpose of accidentally discharging a held touch spell?
And since this "weapon" is magical energy and it is dependent on the hand, I don't really see it as a traditional weapon in that sense.
Also under Piercing Bolts
At 3rd level, the warlock can choose one mystic bolt per round to be a touch attack.
So it isn't a weapon at all for one attack a round at level 3 and all attacks per round at level 5.
Let me give you an example:
Let's say a Wraith is a spell caster for this premise.
Wraiths get "Constitution Drain" which reads as such:
Creatures hit by a wraith’s touch attack must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. On each successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Now in my eyes, if a Wraith casts a touch spell, touches his target with the free touch, they are of course subject to the Constitution Drain here.
Mystic Bolts is written with this intent in mind. They wanted it to be a "weapon" so you can apply things like Arcane Strike (which they get as a Vigilante Talent for this reason).
They also didn't want it to be a touch attack from level 1 (since the damage at level 1 is reasonable) so it had to be treated as a weapon for the purposes of attacks which is why it says as though and it doesn't out right call them weapons.
Why go through the trouble of writing it with AS THOUGH and ATTACKS if it was just meant to be a "temporary weapon"?
Because the entire ability was written with the premise of replacing your attacks (including touch attacks) with this ability.
They also couldn't just make it an unarmed strike, because then they've created a Monk/Vigilante/Magus hybrid, which is clearly not the flavor of the class.
So we are left with this awkward ability that is written in such a way to explicitly allow you to replace any normal attack with a bolt, treat it as a weapon for purposes that extend to weapons, and grant the touch attack portion at a later level.
Finally Mystic Bolts is a terrible ability if read in a completely exclusive way. 3.5 average damage (that increase by 1 every 4 levels) is just not usable in any context.
Why would I EVER do this over swinging a Rapier/Longsword/any of the other martial weapons Vigilantes get?
Not to mention people with resistance 5 energy are essentially entirely immune to this ability
So they give up their Vigilante Specialization for a bad cantrip?
Why would this ever get played over a Cabalist? which get's the Witch list (arguably better for a Vigilante, especially considering an exclusive ruling on Mystic Bolts) and abilities that are actually usable?
To follow up my point where people are saying "not all touch attacks actually require you to touch the target"
That is entirely false.
Brilliant Energy reads as such:
Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor.
Notice how the weapon doesn't say "touch attack" it says, it ignores Armor AC bonuses.
Now lets read Touch Attacks
Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect.
So it EXPLICITLY has a defined meaning here, where EVERY touch attack requires you to touch your foe.
That's what a "touch" attack is and that's why it's called a touch attack.