So twice in the past week i have derailed threads with scenarios involving this ability and i figure its time to make a stand alone thread on it.
Here is the ability in question:
Mighty Strike (Ex): At 6th level, a heritor knight gains Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike as bonus feats. Whenever the heritor knight makes a melee attack as a standard action, she can apply the effects of Improved Vital Strike to that attack. If she has Greater Vital Strike, she can apply that feat’s effects instead.
So since Vital Strikes are already a standard action the ability seems to be saying that you can combine any vital strike feat with other special attacks made as a standard action. The obvious choices for this are the other class abilities that Heritor Knight gains that work as standard actions. There is also Cleave which the class author has highlighted as a good choice.
There was some conversation about the Doublestrike ability of the Two-Weapon Warrior that came down to not compatible as that ability makes two attacks and Might Strike only works when making a single attack.
I brought up the idea of Mighty Strike and Kinetic Blade but that runs into two competing exceptions, Kinetic Blast cant be used with Vital Strike and Might Strike allows Vital Strike to mix with otherwise barred standard actions.
I first read the ability as overriding exceptions to the vital strike restrictions but the author has clarified that it doesn't. So the question comes down to what else is Might Strike compatible with? I am curious to see what kind of builds can be made to make Vital Strike an enticing option.
I disagree. I think it's just reminding you that Vital Strike can only be done as the specific attack action which is a standard action. . You can't combine it with anything you can't normally combine with Vital Strike, which is pretty much anything.
Quote: Vital Strike: Can I use this with Spring Attack, or on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.
If the ability is supposed to override this restriction, it should really be clarified to do so.
Lacking clarification to that effect, I read the ability merely as granting you the feats Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike, with the rest of the ability entry being a reminder on how those abilities work.
Claxon wrote: I disagree. I think it's just reminding you that Vital Strike can only be done as the specific attack action which is a standard action. . You can't combine it with anything you can't normally combine with Vital Strike, which is pretty much anything.
Quote: Vital Strike: Can I use this with Spring Attack, or on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.
If the ability is supposed to override this restriction, it should really be clarified to do so.
Lacking clarification to that effect, I read the ability merely as granting you the feats Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike, with the rest of the ability entry being a reminder on how those abilities work.
Per the Author regarding Doublestrike;
Isabelle Lee wrote: My interpretation (and authorial intent) would be that it does not apply, since you're making multiple attacks rather than "a melee attack". Contrast with Cleave, which uses a single attack (which benefits from IVS) to trigger a secondary attack (which does not). So the wording is not just a reminder, it is new rules text or at least was intended to be such. I have been trying to figure out where the new line is though and what neat tricks can be accomplished with this.
Actually rereading Isabelle Lee's comment, it looks like you can use Mighty Strike on Cleave but only for the initial hit and it does not apply to the second attack... which strikes me as an even stranger interpretation because you are only partly mixing the actions. I get where it comes from as functionally the cleave is a new attack though logically and narratively it is a follow through from the same single attack.
That may have been the author's intent, but that's not how the rules really read.
Do you remember how long we had to wait for Titan Mauler barbarian to be errata'd to work correctly, despite the intent being completely obvious what the ability was supposed to do. And even now, I don't believe it actually does what the author intended.
I'm not saying that the ability shouldn't be allowed to modify how Vital Strike can be used. What I'm saying is, that if it was the intention it should be made more clear, as when I'm reading that ability I get none of that intention from it.
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I believe it still works.
The Heritor Knight uses the wording "Whenever the heritor knight makes a melee attack as a standard action", without specifying anything more.
In contrast, Vital Strike uses the wording "When you use the attack action", which the FAQ clarifies is the specific ability to make a single attack as a standard action inherent to combat rules.
Heritor Knight's wording is broad enough to include any melee attacks made as standard actions, since it specifically is not restricting it to only "the attack action".
Claxon wrote: That may have been the author's intent, but that's not how the rules really read.
Do you remember how long we had to wait for Titan Mauler barbarian to be errata'd to work correctly, despite the intent being completely obvious what the ability was supposed to do. And even now, I don't believe it actually does what the author intended.
I'm not saying that the ability shouldn't be allowed to modify how Vital Strike can be used. What I'm saying is, that if it was the intention it should be made more clear, as when I'm reading that ability I get none of that intention from it.
I get what you are saying. It is not how i originally interpreted the ability but after reading your comment i can see how that comes across. But it is such an odd way of reminding players how Improved vital strike and greater vital strike work... and why say improved or greater but not include regular old vital strike? And why lock away an ability that just grants you two feats beyond something that cant be done prior to level 11.
I suppose this is how i parsed it when first read:
"Whenever the heritor knight makes a(ny kind of) melee attack as a standard action, she can (additionally) apply the effects of Improved Vital Strike to that attack."
My reading requires a few more words as implied but to read it otherwise would be:
"Mighty Strike (Ex): At 6th level, a heritor knight gains Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike as bonus feats.(.. USING UP EXTRA SPACE IN A LIMITED SPACE VENUE JUST TO PARTIALLY REITERATE SOME RULES IN A NOT VERY CLEAR MANNER.)"
Due to its place of publication i do not believe there is an official venue for errata and forum posts from the author are as close as we will get. I unfortunately am still confused even after that though. At least now we know that the author did intend for Might Strikes to be an ability beyond bonus feats.
Saethori wrote: I believe it still works.
The Heritor Knight uses the wording "Whenever the heritor knight makes a melee attack as a standard action", without specifying anything more.
In contrast, Vital Strike uses the wording "When you use the attack action", which the FAQ clarifies is the specific ability to make a single attack as a standard action inherent to combat rules.
Heritor Knight's wording is broad enough to include any melee attacks made as standard actions, since it specifically is not restricting it to only "the attack action".
I am sorry, i am not following you... This seems to be my original question, what standard action attacks is Mighty Strikes compatible with? I think you are saying, "All" and the author's statement seems to be "Most, but only on the first damage roll of any special standard actions"
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The Spring Attack/charge FAQ is irrelevant here, because neither of those is a standard action. Mighty Strike lets you combine Vital Strike and its follow-ups with other standard-action attacks. The Heritor Knight abilities are indeed the obvious choices, but Cleave, Deadly Stroke (eew, by the way, on that one), Great Cleave, and several random class abilities scattered around the game (the two-weapon fighter's Devastating Blow would work, if there were some way to actually get it for that character...).
Shisumo wrote: The Spring Attack/charge FAQ is irrelevant here, because neither of those is a standard action. Mighty Strike lets you combine Vital Strike and its follow-ups with other standard-action attacks. The Heritor Knight abilities are indeed the obvious choices, but Cleave, Deadly Stroke (eew, by the way, on that one), Great Cleave, and several random class abilities scattered around the game (the two-weapon fighter's Devastating Blow would work, if there were some way to actually get it for that character...). This is exactly how this ability is supposed to work, and they would not have clarified the specific parameters (which are different from how Vital Strike and it's feat line work) for when the Heritor Knight could use the ability if it were not something special. Obviously it is meant to be used with Heritor Knight abilities, but also with any feats that use a standard action to make a single attack.
Deadly Stroke is most certainly the biggest example. (Cornugon Smash was already good, this just makes it better)
Apparently I missed this thread.
(On my phone right now. I'll probably be back later to explain the intricacies of the wording.)
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I'm with Shisumo. Mighty Strike adds vital strike effect to another standard action melee attack. It explicitly changes the way vital strike works.
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Better yet, it says 'melee attack'. From that interpretation, I think it even applies to spells which involve melee attacks. Though since Heritor Knight doesn't actually grant spellcasting levels I would think this not very easily abused. Nor do I think it even does anything with melee spells because vital strike increases weapon damage.
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