I want to allow players to progress multiple classes to level 20,but I still want to limit them to a similar power level to normal. I will probably limit them to only being to use abilities from one class at a time,but they would be able to switch classes every 1-4 rounds. I was wondering how this should be handled. I thought of the following:
Artifacts that grant access to a single class each,but only one can be active at a time.
The players are commoners haunted by a consort of spirits that lend their powers through possession.
The players are trained in multiple classes,but each one requires using a particular stance or mindset to use.
Yeah, that looks nice. I was going to come up with something that would function like the dressspheres from final fantasy x-2, with each "dresssphere" having their own separate experience pools and feats and taking a full-round action to switch.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Be forewarned that allowing a character to switch between classes that don't share resources will give them nigh infinite low level healing, some nifty support/utility magic, and all of the sneak attack forever.
Be forewarned that allowing a character to switch between classes that don't share resources will give them nigh infinite low level healing, some nifty support/utility magic, and all of the sneak attack forever.
Please note that class abilities cannot be used when that class is inactive. As for infinite magic, I am devising a magic charge system so players would still have a small, limited pool of magic that all classes pull from. Requiring a full-round action to switch seems very fair. As for casting greater invisibility then switching to a rogue for sneak attacks, I'll have to think about some contingencies.
in all honsety gestaulting would be far easyer on you and your party as all the rules are alredy inplace and its fairly strait forward and you dont have to worry about many of the stuff you are now
in all honesty gestalting would be far easier on you and your party as all the rules are already in place and it's fairly straightforward and you don't have to worry about much of the stuff you are now.
I know. For the moment, I will use those rules, but now I want to figure out a way to have 5+ classes at level 20 that's still fair against a single class opponent of equal level.
in all honesty gestalting would be far easier on you and your party as all the rules are already in place and it's fairly straightforward and you don't have to worry about much of the stuff you are now.
I know. For the moment, I will use those rules, but now I want to figure out a way to have 5+ classes at level 20 that's still fair against a single class opponent of equal level.
how many players are in the group? if its like 1 or 2 you could just super jestault them into 3-5 classes
It shouldn't be impossible to homebrew. The trickiest part is avoiding having players make a whole new class sheet every time they switch characters. So they would need to switch active powers, which seems totally reasonable. To start, we'd need to chunk up classes in terms of active/passive powers, resource pools, selectable abilities, etc.
Active/Passive abilities:
Active: Spells, Study, Rage, Bardic Performance, Wildshape, Flurry of Blows, Smite Evil, etc.
Sometimes either: Domains/Inquisitions, School/Bloodline abilities, (Rogue/Slayer/Vigilante/whatever) talents, (Ki/Rage/other) Powers, Hexes, etc.
Passive: Sneak Attack, Bardic Knowledge, Favored Enemy, Paladin Auras, Bonus Feats, Monk misc. bonuses, etc.
Always both: Animal Companions, Mounts, Familiars, Eidolons, etc.
Limited resource pool sources:
Level-derived: Smite, Challenge, Judgement, Wildshape, Martial Flexibility, Stunning Fist, etc.
Level+stat-derived: Burn, Lay on Hands, Ki, Rage, Bardic Performance, Arcane Pool, Fervor, Inspiration, etc.
Stat-derived: 1st level Bloodline/School/Domain Powers+Mysteries, Summoner Summons, Channel Energy, etc.
Static: >6th level Bloodline/School/Domain Abilities+Mysteries, Capstones
Ideally, you'd want to keep your passive bonuses constant between all switches, or at least minimize the number of passives you add/drop. This is especially true of necessarily shared stats, such as HP, AC, hit/damage bonuses, saves, and skill points. This means that HD, FCB (HP), armor proficiencies, stat AC, class AC boosts (AC), BAB, weapon proficiencies, class hit/damage boosts (hit bonuses), base saves (saves), class skills, class skill bonuses, FCB (skills) and feats (everything) should be changed as little as possible. Active boosts are mostly exempt from switchy-problems, since you'd need to recalculate anyways. Gestalt solves this all by putting it in one place, although this leads to unusually powerful characters.
Not all resources are equal, but it is probably possible to draw some sort of equivalency between your stats, levels, how much impact they have relative to your passive class features, and how much of the resource you should have. For instance, full BAB martial resource abilities are generally expected to contribute less to your gameplay than spells are to arcane fullcasters, since you have a more powerful chassis (full BAB, higher HD, better proficiencies) and more secondary/tertiary class features (auras, X talents, X powers, bonus feats) than most casters do. So spells in general have a higher weight, and should cost more. However, some martial abilities are unusually powerful, and thus are hard-capped on a small number of uses at a level. Smite and Challenge can only be used 4 times a day at 10th level (Barring recovery archetypes+feats), while a minimum-stat CRB-only (arcane bloodline) Sorcerer can easily spit out 4 highest-level spells. Per-use, a Smite (+full attack) might be more impactful than most mid-level Wizard spells. Point is: there are many factors to evaluate and balance class resource equivalency on.
To solve this, I'd propose creating a standard character base - the classes that you pick somehow factor into your common base HD, saves, skills, proficiencies, etc. You get a shared resource pool, or a number of shared resource pools. Each limited resource-spender also expends points from your shared pool(s), and you cannot use a limited resource-spender once your pool is empty. Your class-specific passive abilities would need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis, but for the most part should stay. Switching to a specific "mindset" would unlock your various active abilities as well as class-defining passives, but your proficiencies, AC, HP, etc. should stay the same. However, number of attacks and attack bonus *should* change. I'd recommend switching to a single attack bonus system, so you only need to add a flat bonus to attacks and maybe an extra attack or two, but don't need to do the weird -5/-10/-15 extra attack bonus calculations.
The biggest problems when attempting this would be working out a base HP/save/skill standardization system, a proficiency standardization system, a resource pool equivalency, which passives should stay common, and a single attack bonus system. I'll post some specific recommendations in another post. All the problems are fairly big, but not impossible.
For a base class bonus (HD, skills), you could consider averaging all the HD or skill points of component classes, then rounding towards the nearest HD/increment of 2 skills. Or if there is a majority of one HD or skill amount, you round towards that. For example, Ranger + Wizard would be d6 (3.5), 2 skills and d10 (5.5), 6 skills. That averages to d8 (4.5), 4 skills. But if you have Wizard + Sorcerer + Fighter + Ranger + Slayer would be d6 (3.5) + d6 + d10 (5.5) + d10 + d10, with 2 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 6 skills. The HD averages at 4.7, which is comfortably closest to d8 (4.5). However, since you have 3 (out of 5) classes with a d10 (5.5), and you aren't at <= d8 (4.5), then you round up, to d10 (5.5). With skills, this works the same way, and instead of getting 4 (average 3.6), you end up with 2. Be aware: d12 and 8 skills/level becomes a practical impossibility in this situation. You could add the caveat that if you have a d12 or 8 skills, you always round up unless you have a majority hit die / skill amount smaller than your average. This is all confusingly worded, but maybe there's a way to make it simpler:
1. Base HD/skills amount
- Get the mean of the HD/skills of all your selected classes.
- Exact weighting does not matter - could have d6 = 0, d8 = 1, d10 = 2, d12 = 3, so long as difference between each HD and the next higher one is the same.
2. Rounding
- If you have a nice solid number (exactly equal to skill amount or HD), skip this step.
- If more than 1/2 of your classes have the same HD or skill amount, round towards that amount.
- Otherwise, round to the nearest HD or skill amount.
3. Exceptions
- If you have a d12 HD and average a d10 or higher before rounding, you get a d12
- If you have 8 skills and average 6 skills or more before rounding, you get 8 skills
Specifically note that this will untie BAB from HD. BAB should be tied to the active class. Saves should also be tied to the specific class. For the saves, you can apply a slowly-scaling flat bonus to the bad save to make it a good save. The 5e people noticed this, and basically cut out all the other numbers to simplify the game. But here's a Pathfinder-relevant table:
I will probably limit my players to only have access to a few classes following a specific theme tied to their backstory, like a serious bookworm raised in one of the greatest libraries in the world would have access to the bard, rogue, and investigator classes, but cannot access any other classes.
I guess you could extrapolate a formula like the one I posted above to cover all the elements of a base chassis. Perhaps a base chassis houserule system:
Lots of junk:
To find what value (element) the combined class should have
(element) could be HD, skills/level, good saves, proficiencies, etc.
1. Get the average (element) amount
- Find the mean of the (element) of all your selected classes
- Each element will use a different key to assign values to each option
2. Rounding the average
- If you get an average exactly equal to a possible option value, skip this step
- If more than 1/2 of your classes have the same option, round towards that option value
- Otherwise, round towards the nearest option value
- If there are two equally close options, round up
3. Special exceptions
- Each element may have exceptions for unique options
- If every class has a specific option, the combined class will have it
- If no class has a specific option, the combined class will not have it
For HD
- Determines the size of your HD
- Key: d6 = 0, d8 = 1, d10 = 2, d12 = 3 OR d6 = 3.5, d8 = 4.5, d10 = 5.5, d12 = 6.5 OR d6 = 6, d8 = 8, d10 = 10, d12 = 12 (doesn't really matter which one)
- Exceptions: If the average before rounding ≥ d10, and a class has a d12, the resulting class has a d12.
For skills per level
- Determines the base skills per level
- Key: 2+INT = 0, 4+INT = 1, 6+INT = 3, 8+INT = 4 OR 2+INT = 2, 4+INT = 4, 6+INT = 6, 8+INT = 8 (doesn't really matter which one)
- Exceptions: If the average before rounding ≥ 6+INT, and a class has 8+INT, the resulting class has 8+INT.
- Also: Favored Class HP or Skill bonus applies to the combined class. Class-specific bonus only applies to that class.
For saves
- Determines how many good saves you get (alternative to changing good save by class)
- Key: 1 good save = 1, 2 good saves = 2, 3 good saves = 3
- Exceptions: If the average before rounding > 2 good saves, you get 3 good saves.
- Also: You must assign your good saves in descending order of how many of each good save you have. If you have an equal amount of multiple good saves, tiebreaker is Fort>Ref>Will.
For armor proficiencies
- Determines what armor proficiencies you get
- Key: No armor = 0, Light armor = 1, Medium armor = 2, Heavy armor = 3
- Exceptions: None
- Also: You can use armor-restricted non-AC abilities (spells, Flurry of Blows) in up to your second-heaviest armor proficiency. You can always use these abilities in their original intended proficiencies.
For shield proficiencies
- Determines what armor proficiencies you get
- Key: No shield = 0, Light shields and/or bucklers = 1, Heavy shields = 2, Tower shields = 3
- Exceptions: If the average before rounding > heavy shields, you get tower shields
For weapon proficiencies
- Determines which weapon proficiencies you get
- Key: Misc. proficiency = 0, All Simple proficiency = 1, All Martial proficiency = 2
- Exceptions: If another feature gives a specific proficiency (such as a Cleric's deity), that proficiency is not removed. If your class features require a specific weapon (Monk weapons on Monk, guns on Gunslinger), you gain that proficiency. The GM is the final arbiter.
All the junk behind the spoiler would basically be a system to get a single average character from all classes inputted. You would only have one set of HD, saves, proficiencies, and skill points (instead of 2-5). Having a single base chassis would go a long way towards keeping class-switching simple. However, there's also the abuse possibility that a player picks Wizard+Occultist (Battle Host)+Gunslinger (Gun Tank)+Cavalier+Antipaladin and only plays as a d10 strong Fort/Will 4+INT skill cast-in-medium armor Wizard with martial weapons and guns (or Sorcerer, Arcanist, etc.).
As for switching time, it should probably take a minute or 10. Perhaps if you could change class for free whenever you sleep or prepare spells, or spend a minute getting into your other-class mindset. Long-term buffs will not have worn off, but very short ones will, namely Greater Invisibility (1 round/level duration).
I know it's not what you are looking for but I think there is a third party class that "switches class" as it's main shtick I don't remember what it's called though
I know it's not what you are looking for but I think there is a third party class that "switches class" as it's main shtick I don't remember what it's called though
The Medium sorta does that already. But there's probably some variation of the Factotum that does that.
I know it's not what you are looking for but I think there is a third party class that "switches class" as it's main shtick I don't remember what it's called though
The Medium sorta does that already. But there's probably some variation of the Factotum that does that.
Oh yeah I guess the medium does kinda...neat, I wish I could remember that class, I think that they were called like the legend or something dumb like that. They like called upon stories to mix up their features I think...hmm
I want to allow players to progress multiple classes to level 20
Quick question: Are your players capable and willing to do this? I know players who have a hard time to deal with one class, so they wouldn't be keen on more rules for their PC. And if only some players pick up this option, you get a vastly increase power gap within the party - likely leading to frustration.
It's always nice to make up your own game rules - but at the end the fun at the table counts, not the amount of your creativity. In doubt I'd try a simple and weaker version first...
I want to allow players to progress multiple classes to level 20
Quick question: Are your players capable and willing to do this? I know players who have a hard time to deal with one class, so they wouldn't be keen on more rules for their PC. And if only some players pick up this option, you get a vastly increase power gap within the party - likely leading to frustration.
It's always nice to make up your own game rules - but at the end the fun at the table counts, not the amount of your creativity. In doubt I'd try a simple and weaker version first...
I understand. However, even though they have the option to switch classes, it doesn't mean they have to. Even so, I would just start them out as normal, giving access to other classes slowly, one class at a time. At most, they'd only have 5-6 classes each to switch between.
I was going to come up with something that would function like the dressspheres from final fantasy x-2, with each "dresssphere" having their own separate experience pools and feats and taking a full-round action to switch.
A little bit more about the dress spheres:
Each dress sphere has it's own experience pool and gains experience as you use the dress spheres' abilities.
Dress spheres are found at the end of some dungeons, or taken from bosses (usually your rival's team.)
Dress spheres does not influence your health, ability stats, or magic reservoir. They only grant their abilities (steal, white(healing) magic, black(harming) magic,etc.) When it is in use.
When it is your turn, you can switch dress spheres instead of using your abilities, in which case you can't do anything else during that turn. You can use the new dress sphere's abilities on your next turn, however.
I think that I would like to model the system on these dress spheres.
I was going to come up with something that would function like the dressspheres from final fantasy x-2, with each "dresssphere" having their own separate experience pools and feats and taking a full-round action to switch.
A little bit more about the dress spheres:
Each dress sphere has it's own experience pool and gains experience as you use the dress spheres' abilities.
Dress spheres are found at the end of some dungeons, or taken from bosses (usually your rival's team.)
Dress spheres does not influence your health, ability stats, or magic reservoir. They only grant their abilities (steal, white(healing) magic, black(harming) magic,etc.) When it is in use.
When it is your turn, you can switch dress spheres instead of using your abilities, in which case you can't do anything else during that turn. You can use the new dress sphere's abilities on your next turn, however.
I think that I would like to model the system on these dress spheres.
lots of blah:
You'd need some incentive to level all your spheres, instead of just focusing on one and getting really good at it. You might also need some way of easily/conveniently switching, since most classes come with a lot of passive baggage. Fighter, Rogue, and Monk in particular have a lot riding on their chassis. Perhaps instead of doing class switchy-ness, you only impart individual powers? So a "Wizard" sphere wouldn't give you the full array of wizardliness - it would just let you cast 1 spell per spell level (highest spell level = 1/2 your level, rounded up, maximum 9). Or a "Fighter" sphere would make you not-useless with a sword by giving you proficiency with basically everything and a fake Weapon Training +1 to hit/damage every 5 levels. A "Rogue" one might give you the Improved+Greater Steal feats and Sneak Attack of 1d6 every 3 levels A "Barbarian" sphere would net you Rage, while a "Gunslinger" one might make guns not blow up in your hands.
Instead of having spheres change classes fully, perhaps have spheres act as a sort of VMC? So you get a variant multiclass sort of bonus on top of your regular abilities. But instead of getting the watered-down not-so-synergistic mostly passive abilities, you get actually useful ones? So an arcane caster + Gunslinger sphere combo would get the ability to Spellstrike through guns, a divine caster + Gunslinger could have some sort of mini-smite, while a martial + Gunslinger could get trick shots or
DR-piercing bonuses. A martial + Kineticist sphere combo might get bonus elemental damage. An arcane caster + Kineticist would probably deal bonus elemental damage on spells, or have an in-class elemental blast scale like a weaker Kineticist blast. A divine caster + Kineticist would probably tag an elemental aura onto any allies that they buff. A Rogue sphere would probably always grant Sneak Attack, although maybe it would give a hefty boost to certain skills (Sleight of Hand and Disable Device). Wizard sphere would probably give Divine casters spontaneous casting conversion to 1 Wizard spell per spell level from a chosen Wizard school (spells selected by the GM). Arcane casters might get a free metamagic conversion to a few spells a use. Martials might get single-use SL = ((1/2 level) rounded down - 1) Wizard spell and a cantrip. This would amount to 2 cantrips until 3rd level, a 1st and cantrip until 5th, 2nd + cantrip until 7th, 3rd until 9th, so and so forth until you cap off at a 9th + cantrip at 19th level.
Also, if you're going to have some sort of magic reservoir, perhaps you should have it consist of multiple sources: one source is your level, then each of your mental stats is another. Only casters keyed to a specific mental stat should be able to expend magic reservoir points from that stat, while all caster classes can use your level as a source. Also consider finding a point-based method of casting that doesn't become ridiculous, such as mana-based casting or some variation of the Kineticist's Burn. A simple mana-based system would be ideal. A 5e-style system wouldn't be too awful either. Regardless, you should consider having a single shared spells per day thing split among all the classes selected - so the fullcasters, 2/3 casters, and 1/2 casters all cast from the same pool of spells. You might need to convert prepared casters into spontaneous ones, or Arcanist-style casters, or 5e casters, if you want this to work.[
Of course, this might be exhausting to repeat for all Pathfinder classes, and to especially to balance. But doing some sort of full-on Dress Sphere would probably be worse, because of aforementioned passive changes. Pathfinder classes cannot be easily dress-sphereified because Pathfinder characters have required equipment, varying stats, multiple times as many active abilities, oodles and oodles of minorly adjustable passive abilities, and are mostly not digitized. Pathfinder attacks derive from many different possible sources in many strange different ways. You don't have a nice and tidy always-applicable formula with only a few variables to change or introduce. Same thing with AC. Unless you take time and effort to standardize the relationships between stats, misc. bonuses, and attacks, it will be difficult all over.
Perhaps instead of converting Pathfinder classes to Dress Sphere-ification, you convert the Dress Spheres system into a single changeable class? Or make it function for a limited class selection? So you could have a cleric/divine fullcasting set, a wizard+sorcerer/arcane fullcasting set, a bard/buffer set, a gunslinger set, a fighter/balanced melee set, a paladin/tough melee set, a ranger/pet class set, a barbarian/damage melee set, and a rogue set? You'd probably need a common chassis, but that is much easier to create when starting from scratch with a limited pool. So you might start with a d8, 3/4 BAB, and 3 weak saves, but your current choice of class gives a bonus to your saves, and a penalty or bonus to your attacks, and maybe an extra attack or two. It would be somewhat similar to the Medium in that way, except that there are a few jumps and no possession mechanic. You would probably pick only one primary stat that functions for all your casting needs and secondary resources. This ensures you don't need to recalculate a bunch of things if you switch from Wizard mode (usually INT-based casting) to Cleric mode (usually WIS-based), and that you aren't hurting one class by specializing in one stat. To go from pseudo-3/4 BAB to pseudo-1/2 BAB, you could take -1 per 4 levels to attack rolls, starting at 3rd level. To go from pseudo-3/4 to pseudo-full, you could take +1 per 4 levels, starting at 1st. You might need to toss in an extra attack to match up with regular full BAB, but you get the idea.
I was going to come up with something that would function like the dressspheres from final fantasy x-2, with each "dresssphere" having their own separate experience pools and feats and taking a full-round action to switch.
A little bit more about the dress spheres:
Each dress sphere has it's own experience pool and gains experience as you use the dress spheres' abilities.
Dress spheres are found at the end of some dungeons, or taken from bosses (usually your rival's team.)
Dress spheres does not influence your health, ability stats, or magic reservoir. They only grant their abilities (steal, white(healing) magic, black(harming) magic,etc.) When it is in use.
When it is your turn, you can switch dress spheres instead of using your abilities, in which case you can't do anything else during that turn. You can use the new dress sphere's abilities on your next turn, however.
I think that I would like to model the system on these dress spheres.
** spoiler omitted **...
Ok. How about a system like Blue Dragon, where you still have class switching, but it is only done outside of combat, a "skill" slot system that let's you store some abilities from your classes that you can use with other classes (starting with 3 slots), and another class that doesn't have any abilities to learn but unlocks extra skill and accessory slots as you level up in it.
You have two progression types: Universal and individual. Individual progression are used by your classes and advances with experience. Universal progression only advances when the lowest level class levels up (lv.20 fighter+lv.10 bard+lv.1 rogue=lv.1 universal)
You use the average HD, BAB, and saves (done individually) of your classes. These use the universal progression.
The feats are tied to individual class progression, and therefore, each of your classes have their own feats.
You have two progression types: Universal and individual. Individual progression are used by your classes and advances with experience. Universal progression only advances when the lowest level class levels up (lv.20 fighter+lv.10 bard+lv.1 rogue=lv.1 universal)
You use the average HD, BAB, saves (done individually), and progression of spells per day (spell slots will be exchanged for magic charges at the rate of one charge per spell level; I will use the archanist for fullcasting, magus for halfcasting, and paladin for minor spellcasting; this average will only consider your spellcasting classes. Your spellcasting ability will be the one that is used by the most of your classes; in event of a tie, chose an ability to break the tie. Once chosen, it cannot be changed) of your classes. These use the universal progression.
The feats are tied to individual class progression, and therefore, each of your classes have their own feats.
You gain three feature slots, allowing you to use chosen feats, class features, and spellcasting ability from various classes, even while they are inactive. Features chosen function using your universal level. At 6th, 12th, and 18th universal levels, you gain an additional feature slot.
You have two progression types: Universal and individual. Individual progression are used by your classes and advances with experience. Universal progression only advances when the lowest level class levels up (lv.20 fighter+lv.10 bard+lv.1 rogue=lv.1 universal)
You use the average HD, BAB, saves (done individually), and progression of spells per day (spell slots will be exchanged for magic charges at the rate of one charge per spell level; I will use the archanist for fullcasting, magus for halfcasting, and paladin for minor spellcasting; this average will only consider your spellcasting classes. Your spellcasting ability will be the one that is used by the most of your classes; in event of a tie, chose an ability to break the tie. Once chosen, it cannot be changed) of your classes. These use the universal progression.
The feats are tied to individual class progression, and therefore, each of your classes have their own feats.
You gain three feature slots, allowing you to use chosen feats, class features, and spellcasting ability from various classes, even while they are inactive. Features chosen function using your universal level. At 6th, 12th, and 18th universal levels, you gain an additional feature slot.
I'd avoid averaging BAB, since it is basically a class feature in and of itself. This is especially true if you are computing average spells by averaging casting classes. Also, spell level equivalents on 1/2, 2/3, and fullcasters are not the same. Also, make sure to use an averaging method that does not require you to write up custom class charts, then modify them at every new level. Paladin has 4th level spells that get kicked over to 7th level for Clerics, while they also have 4th level spells that are only 3rd level Cleric spells. An APG Summoner's 6 levels of spells are more powerful than basically any other 6-level list, since they have 9th level Wizard spell equivalents. Think of that - why take 2 castings of a 9th level spell, when you can instead have 3?
A single casting stat modifier sounds interesting, but also note the class balance surrounding specific casting stats. The only non-CRB fullcasters to have less than 4+INT spells per level are INT-based casters. With exception of the Cleric (CRB) and the Warpriest (Hybrid of 2+INT Cleric and 2+INT Fighter), all unarchetyped WIS-based casters have at least 4+INT skills per level. This is similar for CHA-based casters - only 3 or so have less than 4+INT skills per level. These are the Paladin/Antipaladin (CRB 1/2 caster), the Sorcerer (CRB fullcaster), and the Summoner (has a second set of skills via the Eidolon). To contrast, the only non-alchemical INT-based caster with more than 2+INT skills per level is the Occultist. A similar effect happens with WIS-based casters and Will saves. The only non-alchemical caster classes without strong Will saves are nature-themed WIS-based casters and the Bloodrager. The Bloodrager can actually boost its Will save by 2 (the difference between a good and bad save at 1st level) by raging. However, the Ranger and Hunter both have weak Will saves. If we wanted to strike full BAB casters (Paladin, Antipaladin, Bloodrager, Ranger) off the list, since full BAB classes usually have weak Will saves, we're basically only left with the Hunter. If I wanted to push this a little further, I might examine the UMonk and Gunslinger, both WIS-secondary classes with naturally weak Will saves. But weak Will saves is generally the case for full BAB classes, so there's that.
Universal and individual class progression sounds bad. It is enforced multiclass progression, which sounds pretty awful. Think of this - to level up once, you need to level with 2-5 different classes. If the XP amount to level a class were 1/2 to 1/5 of the regular amount, you'd still need to do class-switching basically every battle to level all your classes so you can raise your universal level. This becomes especially burdensome once you add the caveat that each class has its own feats. Or if you hyperspecialize, you could become a very fragile character with amazing abilities. This could lead to disaster.
Feature slots sounds kinda cool, but the number of extra features should probably scale by the number of classes you have.
I'd avoid averaging BAB, since it is basically a class feature in and of itself. This is especially true if you are computing average spells by averaging casting classes. Also, spell level equivalents on 1/2, 2/3, and fullcasters are not the same. Also, make sure to use an averaging method that does not require you to write up custom class charts, then modify them at every new level. Paladin has 4th level spells that get kicked over to 7th level for Clerics, while they also have 4th level spells that are only 3rd level Cleric spells. An APG Summoner's 6 levels of spells are more powerful than basically any other 6-level list, since they have 9th level Wizard spell equivalents. Think of that - why take 2 castings of a 9th level spell, when you can instead have 3?
A single casting stat modifier sounds interesting, but also note the class balance surrounding specific casting stats. The only non-CRB fullcasters to have less than 4+INT spells per level are INT-based casters. With exception of the Cleric (CRB) and the Warpriest (Hybrid of 2+INT Cleric and 2+INT Fighter), all unarchetyped WIS-based casters have at least 4+INT skills per level. This is similar for CHA-based casters - only 3 or so have less than 4+INT skills per level. These are the Paladin/Antipaladin (CRB 1/2 caster), the Sorcerer (CRB fullcaster), and the Summoner (has a second set of skills via the Eidolon). To contrast, the only non-alchemical INT-based caster with more than 2+INT skills per level is the Occultist. A similar effect happens with WIS-based casters and Will saves. The only non-alchemical caster classes without strong Will saves are nature-themed WIS-based casters and the Bloodrager. The Bloodrager can actually boost its Will save by 2 (the difference between a good and bad save at 1st level) by raging. However, the Ranger and Hunter both have weak Will saves. If we wanted to strike full BAB casters (Paladin, Antipaladin, Bloodrager, Ranger) off the list, since full BAB classes usually have weak Will saves, we're basically only...
I'm just trying to go as close to the middle of the road with the basic stats (magic included) as possible.
That being said, I will add the following changes:
Spells cost a number of charges equal to it's spell level (using the highest spell level among classes you have access to)
Your universal level is now equal to the average level of your classes.
Feature slots now functions at your universal level or the origin class's level, whichever is worse.
As for scaling the feature slots, I think that 6 is enough. However, if you came up with a formula, I will implement it immediately.
As always, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
The problems basically are:
- Do the players want to do this? (unresolved)
- Single chassis (most of the way)
- Class switching simplicity (nope)
- Caster/Martial differentiation (nope)
- Casting stat selection (working on it)
- Spell equivalency system (working on it)
- Universal vs. specific class level relation (working on it)
- Looking like Final Fantasy (nope)
I'd resolve the first one before we get any further.
- Do the players want to do this? (unresolved)
- Single chassis (most of the way)
- Class switching simplicity (nope)
- Caster/Martial differentiation (nope)
- Casting stat selection (working on it)
- Spell equivalency system (working on it)
- Universal vs. specific class level relation (working on it)
- Looking like Final Fantasy (nope)
I'd resolve the first one before we get any further.
They want to try this system for flexibility reasons, and I thought that it would be a good idea, but I don't want them to be too much more powerful than normal, at least until they're level 15 or higher.
As for why the system looks more like Blue Dragon/Lost Odessey than Final Fantasy, I noticed that having the singular chassis by itself underpowers the characters, hence the addition of feature slots.
I think that the system would work best if the players stuck to specific themes (like Tactical Genius, Lore Master, Guardian Angel, etc.)
I had a DM once that let me play as a pair of characters based off the old movie Ladyhawke. By day I was a male sorcerer with his hawk familiar and by night the familiar transformed into a female ranger, and the sorcerer into her wolf companion.
As to your class swapping idea: it looks overly complicated to me. I would just use the existing gestalt rules, or perhaps take a look at the vigilante class (that is technically 2 different characters at once) and expand on those options and abilities.
However, in an effort to actually contribute to the thread: You could limit the classes available for swapping based on BAB (if you have a full BAB, you can only swap with other full BAB classes, etc.). This would allow for some flexibility, while cutting down on some of the cheezier combos and also simplifying the math somewhat.
I had a DM once that let me play as a pair of characters based off the old movie Ladyhawke. By day I was a male sorcerer with his hawk familiar and by night the familiar transformed into a female ranger, and the sorcerer into her wolf companion.
As to your class swapping idea: it looks overly complicated to me. I would just use the existing gestalt rules, or perhaps take a look at the vigilante class (that is technically 2 different characters at once) and expand on those options and abilities.
However, in an effort to actually contribute to the thread: You could limit the classes available for swapping based on BAB (if you have a full BAB, you can only swap with other full BAB classes, etc.). This would allow for some flexibility, while cutting down on some of the cheezier combos and also simplifying the math somewhat.
what about a character who swaps between rogue and fighter for out of combat and in combat respectivly should that be baned just cuz rogue isnt full bab?
I had a DM once that let me play as a pair of characters based off the old movie Ladyhawke. By day I was a male sorcerer with his hawk familiar and by night the familiar transformed into a female ranger, and the sorcerer into her wolf companion.
As to your class swapping idea: it looks overly complicated to me. I would just use the existing gestalt rules, or perhaps take a look at the vigilante class (that is technically 2 different characters at once) and expand on those options and abilities.
However, in an effort to actually contribute to the thread: You could limit the classes available for swapping based on BAB (if you have a full BAB, you can only swap with other full BAB classes, etc.). This would allow for some flexibility, while cutting down on some of the cheezier combos and also simplifying the math somewhat.
what about a character who swaps between rogue and fighter for out of combat and in combat respectivly should that be baned just cuz rogue isnt full bab?
... You know the BAB-limited swapping was just a suggestion, right? I could poke holes in it all day long, but it does prevent BAB recalculation awfulness, keeps HD mostly the same, and prevents most Wizard-not-wizard abusable combos. Granted, 3/4 BAB basically becomes king under this option, but it's not truly awful.
