Teleportationist inquiry


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Does the Teleportationist's shift ability qualify for the dimensional dervish feat line?


Basically, ask your GM. I'm not sure if there's a PFS answer to this question, but you could argue either way in a home game.

Sovereign Court

No, it does not, unfortunately. The designers have clarified in years past that it must be that specific spell and you must be able to cast it or use it as a spell like ability. Even if you have a spell like ability that seems close or says that it works "like dimension door" it does not qualify, sadly.

Some info related to this on this FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow

Sovereign Court

Here's a post by the guy who allegedly came up with the feat chain and some insight into it: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mnu4?Dimension-Agility#8


Yes, the Shift ability qualifies you for the Dimensional Dervish feat. It acts the the spell-like ability Dimension Door, and therefor can be used to meet any prerequisites that require you to be able to cast Dimension Door.

James Krolak wrote:
No, it does not, unfortunately. The designers have clarified in years past that it must be that specific spell and you must be able to cast it or use it as a spell like ability.

This is a common misconception that has unfortunately been repeated several times on the forums. The FAQ in question explains what kind of prerequisites spell-like abilities can be used to fulfill, and the Dimensional Agility feat is explicitly listed as an example of something that you can qualify with SLA's. However, you could not use such a SLA to qualify for the Eldritch Knight prestige class as that requires general spellcasting abilities.

FAQ wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".


James Jacob's comments: Link

Sounds like: RAW - no, Houserule - sure.


kadance wrote:

James Jacob's comments: Link

Sounds like: RAW - no, Houserule - sure.

I have to disagree on James Jacobs' assessment. Shift explicitly states that it works like Dimension Door, so anything that modifies the way Dimension Door works also modifies the Shift power. There's a reasonable argument that Shift cannot be used to qualify for Dimensional Agility since the ability is named differently, but the effect explicitly draws from the rules for Dimension Door so any feat you have that modifies Dimension Door is transitive to Shift.


I am pretty sure it does not qualify for that feat line.

Dimensional Agility Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door.

Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door.

RAW, Shift is not a Sp ability (and so you don't "cast" it), so it does not qualify. Also, note that even though you could argument that Shift would qualify for the feat because it works like Dimension Door, Abundant step had to be specifically written in the feat prerequisites. If it qualified just because it works like Dimension Door, it would have no need to specifically write Abundant Step as a valid prerequisite.

RAI? Probably yes.
RAW? No.

Liberty's Edge

Dasrak wrote:

Yes, the Shift ability qualifies you for the Dimensional Dervish feat. It acts the the spell-like ability Dimension Door, and therefor can be used to meet any prerequisites that require you to be able to cast Dimension Door.

James Krolak wrote:
No, it does not, unfortunately. The designers have clarified in years past that it must be that specific spell and you must be able to cast it or use it as a spell like ability.

This is a common misconception that has unfortunately been repeated several times on the forums. The FAQ in question explains what kind of prerequisites spell-like abilities can be used to fulfill, and the Dimensional Agility feat is explicitly listed as an example of something that you can qualify with SLA's. However, you could not use such a SLA to qualify for the Eldritch Knight prestige class as that requires general spellcasting abilities.

FAQ wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".

Quote:
Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door.

Sorry, Dasrak, it don't call out the spell dimension door explicitly. It say "you can teleport ... as if using dimension door ". Insufficient to qualify.

You need a SLA that say "you can teleport ... using dimension door", without the "as if".


Dalindra wrote:

I am pretty sure it does not qualify for that feat line.

Dimensional Agility Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door.

Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door.

RAW, Shift is not a Sp ability (and so you don't "cast" it), so it does not qualify. Also, note that even though you could argument that Shift would qualify for the feat because it works like Dimension Door, Abundant step had to be specifically written in the feat prerequisites. If it qualified just because it works like Dimension Door, it would have no need to specifically write Abundant Step as a valid prerequisite.

RAI? Probably yes.
RAW? No.

Agreed. As written no, but it should probably be allowed anyways. As a wizard, you will have the ability to cast the spell eventually anyways so it only effects how early you could get it. And, since you can retrain feats, you could retrain earlier feats to have it as soon as you get 4th level spells.


Diego Rossi wrote:


Sorry, Dasrak, it don't call out the spell dimension door explicitly. It say "you can teleport ... as if using dimension door ". Insufficient to qualify.
You need a SLA that say "you can teleport ... using...

I see no reason to treat either of those phrasings any differently. Both indicate that you should use the rules for Dimension Door except as otherwise specified by the Shift ability. The Dimensional Agility feat changes the way the Dimension Door rules work for your character, and unless specifically stated otherwise such effects are transitive to other rules that reference each other.

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