So our Wizard got hit with Baleful Polymorph and failed both saves and got turned into a Gold fish (we're using the general rules of the Puffer Fish mainly for size and for the Int stat, which is an INT of 1)
He was wearing a Headband of Vast Intelligence +6, which he has worn more than 24 hours. His normal INT is 20, with the headband on, his INT is 26.
What is his Intelligence now that he is a gold fish (puffer fish) and has failed both his Fort & Will saves?
Thank You all for your help.
His intelligence is reduced to 1 by the baleful polymorph, but I don't believe that affects the item, which continues to function even while melded into the goldfish form because it does not require activation. I think his intelligence is now 7. He still doesn't have the ability to use spells, SLAs, supernatural or extraordinary abilities, and since his alignment is now true neutral he may be a little more disengaged from whatever he believed in before.
He is a int 7 fish that thinks he's a fish
avr wrote: His intelligence is reduced to 1 by the baleful polymorph, but I don't believe that affects the item, which continues to function even while melded into the goldfish form because it does not require activation. I think his intelligence is now 7. He still doesn't have the ability to use spells, SLAs, supernatural or extraordinary abilities, and since his alignment is now true neutral he may be a little more disengaged from whatever he believed in before. Thank you for your reply. Now add this to the equation... I'm under the impression that since the headband has been worn for over 24 hours the +6 bonus has become a "permanent" bonus, thus making his Int score a 26. Not a 20 +6. Here is what Pathfinder defines for a Temporary Bonus & a Permanent Bonus when it comes to Int.
Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
I'm not debating that the function of the headband has stopped, I agree that it has enhanced the characters Int by +6 even when Baleful Polymorphed but because it is now permanent his Int is 26 and so would be a 1 when turned into a fish.
I also have a theory that if he had just found and put on the headband 5 hours before being turned into a fish, THEN, his +6 Int bonus is currently a Temporary Bonus, and then I agree that his Int would be read as such, 20 + 6. Then I could understand that he would have a 1 + 6 Int for a 7 as a fish.
What are your thoughts?
The only difference between a "Temporary Bonus" and a "Permanent Bonus" are what impacts they have on the character. In both cases, this character's Int is 20 + 6.
For example, the Temp Bonus to Int doesn't give extra skill points, while a Permanent Bonus does.
Additionally, if the character were hit with the appropriate Dispel Magic spell, and the headband were suppressed, the character would lose the bonus to Int regardless of whether the bonus were currently qualifying for Temporary or Permanent status.
Whether the bonus is typed as Temporary or Permanent has no impact on whether or not the headband continues to work while under the effects of a Polymorph spell.
RPGLifer wrote: avr wrote: His intelligence is reduced to 1 by the baleful polymorph, but I don't believe that affects the item, which continues to function even while melded into the goldfish form because it does not require activation. I think his intelligence is now 7. He still doesn't have the ability to use spells, SLAs, supernatural or extraordinary abilities, and since his alignment is now true neutral he may be a little more disengaged from whatever he believed in before. Thank you for your reply. Now add this to the equation... I'm under the impression that since the headband has been worn for over 24 hours the +6 bonus has become a "permanent" bonus, thus making his Int score a 26. Not a 20 +6. Here is what Pathfinder defines for a Temporary Bonus & a Permanent Bonus when it comes to Int.
Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
I'm not debating that the function of the headband has stopped, I agree that it has enhanced the characters Int by +6 even when Baleful Polymorphed but because it is now permanent his Int is 26 and so would be a 1 when turned into a fish.
I also have a theory that if he had just found and put on the headband 5 hours before being turned into a fish, THEN, his +6 Int bonus is currently a Temporary Bonus, and then I agree that his Int would be read as such, 20 + 6. Then I could understand that he would have a 1 + 6 Int for a 7 as a fish.
What are your thoughts?
The problem with this logic, then, is: if (somehow) the item got removed, would the character (fish) immediately fall unconscious forever? I'm not so sure about that. I think the intention of the "permanent bonuses" rule is to simplify play for ordinary circumstances. It helps to reduce paperwork and missed numbers, etc. This doesn't really qualify as an "ordinary circumstance," though, so I'd start parsing numbers.
Ok, next question. Can a fish hold it's breath? With an Int of 1?
With an Int of 7?
Our Wizard was turned into a gold fish Out of Water. The Aquatic Subtype says a Fish cannot breathe air. We're assuming after the transformation does he have the capability of holding his "breath" to not suffocate?
The group figures yes but then after 1 round of him holding his breath, he got hit with an acid ray dealing 40 Points of Damage that brought him down to 90 from 130. Now the groups' consensus is that depending on what his Int is, that he would "know" to not stop holding his breath even after suffering damage, because then he would have to start rolling Con checks to prevent suffocation.
But even with a 7 Int, do you all think he still thinks he is a Fish (a very smart fish) or does he know he's a Wizard turned into a fish?
If you assume that 3-18 is the "normal" human range from severely mentally disabled to genius level, a 7 int is slightly below average on the bell curve of distribution.
Yes, someone with a 7 Int would know to hold their breath if they were someplace they couldn't breath.
A 1 Int fish, probably not, as that's the lower end of animal intelligence.
Though, mechanically, fish cannot "hold their breath." In general, they do not have lungs or any other organ to store "breath" like that.
A human wizard as a fish would breath air or aquatically depending on what's needed.
Quote: If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing Int 1 animals hold breath, its innate reflex from wanting to live.
He knows he is a smart fish that learned about adventuring somehow but has always been a fish.
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