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I'm a HUGE fan of the fochlucan lyrist from 3.5, and was wondering if there was a way to make such a character. I know prestige classes are lackluster in pf, I know. I'm willing to go outside the box on this one.
The character theme I would like to go with is:
Bardic knowledge (or something similar)
Bardic Music (or similar)
Nature themed casting (doesn't matter if arcane or divine)
Evasiom
Ideas?
All paizo allowed
A Nature based Caster who buys a ring of evasion and VMC's Bard.
Ranger VMC Bard. You can skip the ring.
Bard with the Druid spell list?
1st edition bards had to go through levels of fighter, thief and then bard. So if you want to start a PRC to replicate that, you should start along those lines.
I dont't think it would be good to require those specific classes. Rather, look at some of the features of those classes and make those the prereqs. For example, you could require proficiency in all martial weapons, ranks in certain "rogue skills", and ranks in perform, and spellcasting. I think it would be best to allow some flexibility so that someone could make a nature-ish bard like in AD&D, a arcane/socialite bard from 3rd ed, or some other kind if they choose.
Bard with the Druid spell list?The problem is getting 9th level casting...wait...I never specified that one. My bad.
@Louise - Thanks for that tip on the VMC option. I think a Nature Fang Druid with the VMC Bard might just do.
Your Welcome.
You can as a Druid use a wooden Shield as well. So Medium Armor + Shield + Spells (Barkskin) you can have a very decent AC.
Choosing a Domain or Animal is up to you. Both have benefits but I do not know your play style. If you are VMCing the Bard though I recommend the Animal so later you can perform and boost it to be the Melee powerhouse part of your build or even a flanking buddy for you.
I think it will be the best route to go instead of traditional Multiclassing, using a weak PrC, or trying to brew your own class that might end up way OP.
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Actually, I did some snooping around and found a PrC from the 3.5 edition that could be better used as a framework that I can draw from. I don't need casting from two spell lists. However, I do need 9th level casting with a focus on nature-esq magic, and bardic elements.
Additionally, the bard itself is known for its skill-monkey capabilities. So, I got to thinking about what other classes besides a druid have a nature themed spell list?
The Shaman has a diverse spell list that is constantly in flux, along with the kinds of spells I'm looking for. If need be, I can pick a race that adds spells outside of its spell list. Going with the Lore Spirit would be the best choice as some of its hexes would synergize really well with Bardic Knowledge.
The main strategy of the character, when in combat, would then be a batman caster, or toolbox mage. To put it plainly, it'd be a Lore Shaman with VMC Bard. Thoughts?
Note: I think if I went druid with the AC, and then put VMC Bard on top of it, I'd be aiming for too much. I, regretfully, prefer going without an animal companion because of tunnels or small systems that dms like to pull nowadays. It's all fine and dandy until a great class feature is effectively made useless.
Lore Shaman with VMC Bard is fine.
You will have to carefully pick your feats but it can work well enough.
As for your DM liking Tunnels and such that is not a problem if you pick a small AC so it only goes up to Medium. If the PCs fit...it fits. Or you can go with a Snake, which can go through Tunnels.
I do not feel your aiming for too much as an AC is pretty stand alone on their own. Throw in a Bard performing for them they are pretty darn decent.
If you go with lore shaman, VMC bard, then you might like the serendipity shaman archetype to get a slightly better selection of spirit magic spells. The luck hexes seem more bardic to me too and they don't preclude getting arcane enlightenment.
Bard with the Druid spell list?The problem is getting 9th level casting...wait...I never specified that one. My bad.
I do not think this is a realistic expectation, though, considering all the multiclassing that a 1E Bard would have to go through. 6-level casting would make perfect sense for a class that would normally require extensive multiclassing.
So a nature fang druid (or shaman, or an oracle with the right mystery) with VMC bard is definitely a powerful option, but a hunter with VMC bard might be a closer fit. My preferred option would be a bard archetype that trades a few features for the hunter spell list and companion and a rogue VMC.
I dont't think it would be good to require those specific classes. Rather, look at some of the features of those classes and make those the prereqs. For example, you could require proficiency in all martial weapons, ranks in certain "rogue skills", and ranks in perform, and spellcasting. I think it would be best to allow some flexibility so that someone could make a nature-ish bard like in AD&D, a arcane/socialite bard from 3rd ed, or some other kind if they choose.
He specifically mentioned "evasion" and that takes two levels of rogue. I think going through fighter, rogue and a couple levels of bard would be a good way to start with the PrC being a hyper bard along the lines of the VMC you are talkng about.
I dont't think it would be good to require those specific classes. Rather, look at some of the features of those classes and make those the prereqs. For example, you could require proficiency in all martial weapons, ranks in certain "rogue skills", and ranks in perform, and spellcasting. I think it would be best to allow some flexibility so that someone could make a nature-ish bard like in AD&D, a arcane/socialite bard from 3rd ed, or some other kind if they choose.He specifically mentioned "evasion" and that takes two levels of rogue. I think going through fighter, rogue and a couple levels of bard would be a good way to start with the PrC being a hyper bard along the lines of the VMC you are talkng about.
Evasion is pretty shit ability in the grand scheme of things and can/should not be a selling point especially when you have to dip Rogue. Monk also gives evasion and is a MUCH better dip than Rogue.
You can BUY evasion via a ring or you can get a nice HP pool, Pass the save, Take half, Reduce the damage via spells and usually still take 0 damage. In years of playing I have never said to myself...I wish I had evasion or Evasion would have saved me. Because those situations are so rare they are near non existent. Since he is looking at druid he has those option on hand built into the class.
I suggest just letting Evasion go and show off why druid is a t1 class and most classes with Evasion are on the bottom tiers of power.
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That's the same realization I came to, as well. Evasion never really helped any of my friends and their classes, so there is truly no need for it. If I need it, either I can cast a spell that counters a specific situation, or my positioning skills are lacking and I'm doing something very very wrong.
I did some looking around, and at this point, all I want in this character is 9th level casting with Bardic knowledge with some singing element. If I go with the Cloistered Cleric, I'll be a bit MAD, but I could pull it off. I'm sure there's a feat out there that mixes the perform skill with casting or fighting in some way.
Going in the other direction, I like what you guys suggested on the Lore Shaman, and Nature Fang/Urban Druid ideas.
The only real issue I run into is what race to choose. I was thinking starting first level with elf and Breadth of Knowledge so I could get a jump start on those skills. The other option would be to go for human, and find the least feat intensive path to go. Either way, the PC is going to be MAD.
Suggetions?
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First edition multi-classing was a completely different sort of beast to 3.x
Unless your first class hit name level, it was typically at most a one character level tax on your character as the amount of XP up til name level (typiclaly 9th) doubled each level. It also varied a lot between classes, so taking a fighter and then moving to wizard cost you a lot less than going the other way (as wizards required the most xp of the standard classes.
I'm sure there's a feat out there that mixes the perform skill with casting or fighting in some way.
Spellsong or Harmonic Spell are what you're thinking of. Discordant Voice may be useful later on.
The only real issue I run into is what race to choose. I was thinking starting first level with elf and Breadth of Knowledge so I could get a jump start on those skills. The other option would be to go for human, and find the least feat intensive path to go. Either way, the PC is going to be MAD.
Suggestions?
If you need more ability scores humans can get the dual talent alternate racial trait.
Dual Talent: Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.
Though unless you need a particularly unusual combination of high scores it might be better to take a race which has those high instead. What are your two highest priorities?
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If I go Urban Druid, it's int and wis.
If I go Lore Shaman, it's just wis.
If I go Nature Fang Druid, it'll be at least 16 str, 14 dex, and as high a wis as I can get.
The problem going nature fang is that I don't have enough skill points for the knowledge skills, and none of them are class skills, so I'd be forced to go elf for the Breadth of Experience feat.
Urban Druid makes it so I can take the knowledge domain, and take them as class skills. I'd be low on skill points, unless I invested into int.
Going Lore Shaman, I'd need to go with the elf scenario again.
Samsarans get +2 Int & Wis, -2 Con. They also get to make a couple of knowledge skills class skills & get a +2 bonus to each. Samsarans have a reputation for being cheesy based on an alternate racial trait which can replace those knowledge skills as class skills, Mystic Past Life - if you don't take that it'd be hard to make the argument that they're overpowered.
A lore shaman needs some Cha & Int if they're going to use the arcane enlightenment hex, but not necessarily a lot. Aasimar get +2 Wis & Cha with no negative on the stats. There's at least a couple of alternate racial traits for them which give bonuses to knowledge skills, and there's a Lore spirit hex which lets you use Wis instead of Int for the knowledge skill bonus (though not for the number of skill points).
Str & Wis is an Oread. -2 Cha should be fine on a nature fang druid. You will probably want to look at their alternate racial traits as the spell like ability and earth affinity are unlikely to be useful to you.
There are feats other than Breadth of Experience which give bonuses to knowledge skills. e.g. Dilettante, Improvisation (human only) & Improved Improvisation, Amateur Investigator, or Cunning for extra skill points. The Possessed trait may be relevant if you're using traits. Elves are not the only knowledgable folk around.