Can you use a secondary Attack for damage as part of a grapple check

[Stephen Ede]

I have a monster with 2 Primary Natural Attacks with Grab and a secondary attack with poison.

If I start an attack with one of those Primary attacks can I in subsequent turns when making a Grapple check to do damage use the secondary attack (with penalties for been a secondary attack).
The Primary Attack is still tied up doing the Grapple, but I want to do the secondary damage instead to get the poison in.

Thanks

[Rory]

Stephen Ede wrote:

I have a monster with 2 Primary Natural Attacks with Grab and a secondary attack with poison.

If I start an attack with one of those Primary attacks can I in subsequent turns when making a Grapple check to do damage use the secondary attack (with penalties for been a secondary attack).
The Primary Attack is still tied up doing the Grapple, but I want to do the secondary damage instead to get the poison in.

Yes, you can use the secondary attack on the grappled victim. Further, if you are only attacking with the secondary attack, you do not suffer penalties to hit and damage on the attack.

[Gallant Armor]

Rory wrote:

Stephen Ede wrote:

I have a monster with 2 Primary Natural Attacks with Grab and a secondary attack with poison.

If I start an attack with one of those Primary attacks can I in subsequent turns when making a Grapple check to do damage use the secondary attack (with penalties for been a secondary attack).
The Primary Attack is still tied up doing the Grapple, but I want to do the secondary damage instead to get the poison in.

Yes, you can use the secondary attack on the grappled victim. Further, if you are only attacking with the secondary attack, you do not suffer penalties to hit and damage on the attack.

" If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one."

You would be able to use any natural attacks that aren't being used to grapple, but any secondary attacks are still treated as secondary even if they are the only attacks made that round. If the creature had two separate grab attacks, grappling would only occupy one unless otherwise stated.

[Diego Rossi]

PRD wrote:

Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

...
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

You can apply the damage of one of your natural attacks, any attack can be chosen and you and you don't suffer the secondary attack penalty to the grapple check.

As maintaining the grapple check is a standard action you can't make further attacks unless you have an ability that allow you to make them as free actions (example: rake).

[wraithstrike]

I thought you had to use the grappling appendage, but the book does say "a natural attack", and does not call out the damaging appendage.

[Gallant Armor]

I just reread grab and grapple and what I posted earlier would only apply if you were just using grab to hold at -20 and not actually grapple. That being said, dropping the grab/grapple at the start of each turn and full attacking could be a better option depending on the target.

[Gauss]

You must use the appendage that performed the grab attack.

Bestiary p301 wrote:

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

So the answer is no, in your example, you cannot switch to the secondary attack.

[Stephen Ede]

Would that apply if it had used a Grapple Manuever rather than Grab to start the Grapple in the 1st place (frequently a straight Grapple check is more likely to succeed than a standard attack roll).

PS. What difference does constriction make, given that a constriction special attack is in addition to the damage that can be chosen to be done as a Grapple action once a hold has been established.

[Gauss]

Stephen Ede,

In the case of a regular grapple you can select any natural attack you wish.

CRB p200 wrote:

Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

[ckdragons]

Since I've always thought the attacks happen at the same time, my group have always resolved the attacks/damage prior to any grab attempts. Then on the subsequent round if the creature is still grappling determine it's best action.

[Gauss]

ckdragons, attacks do not happen at the same time, they are sequential. Resolve one before the next.

Of course, many tables have the person roll them all at once just to speed things along, but even then you should have a way to put them in sequence (color of dice, in a line, whatever).

[ckdragons]

Gauss wrote:

ckdragons, attacks do not happen at the same time, they are sequential. Resolve one before the next.

Of course, many tables have the person roll them all at once just to speed things along, but even then you should have a way to put them in sequence (color of dice, in a line, whatever).

So, if the attack line is:

2 Claws +13 (1d6+3, grab), Bite +13 (1d6+3)

Then the grab should be resolved immediately after hitting with the 1st claw before rolling the attack with the 2nd claw?

And what if the creature has the Constrict special ability? Then that creature (with the same attack line) could 1st claw attack > grab > constrict > release (free action) > 2nd claw attack > grab > constrict > bite?!

[Gauss]

Question 1: Yes
Question 2: Technically yes, although most people find that to be an abuse of the intent of the rules. (There are a number of threads on that very 'tactic'.)

[ckdragons]

Gauss wrote:

Question 1: Yes

Does this mean that the creature will not resolve it's 2nd claw and bite attacks if it is successful with the grab maneuver on the 1st claw since it's technically a grapple check (standard action)?

Can the creature choose to NOT use it's grab maneuver as part of its attacks?

[Stephen Ede]

I recall a similar discussion regarding the large Cat Pounce routine of Bite, Claw, Claw all with Grab and IIRC the ruling was that regardless of one of the Grabs been successful you got to complete the full set of attacks.
A Grapple Combat Manuever is a Standard action but the Grapple associated with Grab is a free Grapple check. The Grapple condition doesn't in itself stop you making attacks.

Quote:

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

[Stephen Ede]

Have to say it's easy to become confused regarding the 1 limb grapple rules.

If you have a Grab attack you can choose to attempt to grapple with just that limb and not gain the Grapple Condition yourself but take a -20 on the Grapple check.

Alternatively you can choose to grapple with a single limb, gaining the Grappled Condition but take a -4 on the Grapple check.

The latter is primarily useful if you have various Grapple feats that allow you to maintain a Grapple as a Move action, so you can then Grapple a 2nd target with another limb. With the right feats and sufficient limbs you can grapple up to 4 targets simultaneously, delivering 6 attacks + any constriction special attacks on all those Grapple checks.

[Stephen Ede]

A related question.
You have pinned someone and want to activate a Spell-like ability.
Do you have to make a Concentration check DC 10 + spell level + Pinned creatures CMB?

[Ascalaphus]

Stephen Ede wrote:

Have to say it's easy to become confused regarding the 1 limb grapple rules.

If you have a Grab attack you can choose to attempt to grapple with just that limb and not gain the Grapple Condition yourself but take a -20 on the Grapple check.

Alternatively you can choose to grapple with a single limb, gaining the Grappled Condition but take a -4 on the Grapple check.

The latter is primarily useful if you have various Grapple feats that allow you to maintain a Grapple as a Move action, so you can then Grapple a 2nd target with another limb. With the right feats and sufficient limbs you can grapple up to 4 targets simultaneously, delivering 6 attacks + any constriction special attacks on all those Grapple checks.

The less-than-two-handed grapple rule only applies to humanoids:

CRB > Combat > Grapple wrote:

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.

It makes sense that this rule doesn't apply to monsters without hands like snakes, or with specialized grabbing limbs like scorpions.

It's weird that fey and outsiders with otherwise humanoid-looking bodies don't take penalties for using only one hand to grapple though.

[Stephen Ede]

Hmm. I think that's one of the times I take "Humanoid" to indicate creatures with a Humanoid shaped body, not the Humanoid type per se.

Namely standing upright with legs underneath the torso and arms from the sides of the torso in the general configuration of humans (even if excess arms).

[Ascalaphus]

Agreed.

[RedDogMT]

Stephen Ede wrote:

A related question.

You have pinned someone and want to activate a Spell-like ability.
Do you have to make a Concentration check DC 10 + spell level + Pinned creatures CMB?

I do believe spell-like abilities do require a concentration checks in the same ways that spells would.

...but also keep in mind that most Spell like abilities are activated as a Standard action. If you choose to maintain the pin (ie grapple) at the start of the round, you will not have a standard action to use. Alternately, if you choose to use the standard action to activate the Spell-like ability, the pin will be released.

[Gauss]

ckdragons wrote:

Gauss wrote:

Question 1: Yes

Does this mean that the creature will not resolve it's 2nd claw and bite attacks if it is successful with the grab maneuver on the 1st claw since it's technically a grapple check (standard action)?

Can the creature choose to NOT use it's grab maneuver as part of its attacks?

No, Grab is a free action.

Bestiary p301 wrote:

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

This is completely by the rules: Claw, grab success, claw, bite, (and rake, rake if charging).

[Stephen Ede]

RedDogMT wrote:

Stephen Ede wrote:

A related question.

You have pinned someone and want to activate a Spell-like ability.
Do you have to make a Concentration check DC 10 + spell level + Pinned creatures CMB?

I do believe spell-like abilities do require a concentration checks in the same ways that spells would.

...but also keep in mind that most Spell like abilities are activated as a Standard action. If you choose to maintain the pin (ie grapple) at the start of the round, you will not have a standard action to use. Alternately, if you choose to use the standard action to activate the Spell-like ability, the pin will be released.

:-) We're talking about Grapple builds here. Which means maintain grapples are down to Move actions with Greater Grapple,

[Stephen Ede]

Just noticed that Body Shield, Snapping Turtle Clutch and Rapid Grapple all use Immediate or Swift actions. :-(
Sigh. The old Magus problem. To many things to do with your one Swift/immediate action.:-(

[Rory]

wraithstrike wrote:

I thought you had to use the grappling appendage, but the book does say "a natural attack", and does not call out the damaging appendage.

You do and you don't... the Grab ability has a "grab to hold" and a "normal grapple" option.

If you grab to hold (-20 check), you use the grabbing appendage damage. By grabbing to hold, the grabbing critter isn't grappled and can make attacks with all of its natural attacks (the one holding the critter tries to maintain the grapple to do damage) on subsequent rounds. Very mean.

If you start a normal grapple, you can use any natural attack on subsequent rounds. This is far easier to grapple something, but it also comes with a lot more penalties. Importantly, you are limited to one natural attack for damage this way. Normal grappling can be a fairly weak option for a creature with many attacks.

Either way, that scorpion gets an attempt to sting its grappled foe the next round.