| NetoD20 |
So, I decided to make some alterations to the Witch class, and I'd like the community's opinion on it. I've always liked that the Witch was an Intelligence-based spellcaster, but the fact that they don't need Charisma nor Wisdom bothered me a bit. I like casters like the Psychic that have to rely on two ability scores for their magical powers, and to me adding Wisdom/Charisma to the brew seemed good to reflect popular portrayal of witches as either irresistible charmers or keepers of ancient folk spellcasting methods. That still keeps witches similar to wizards, but adds flavour and differentiation between the two. The other thing that always bothered me a bit was that the Witch Spell List always seemed a little too limited, I understand that hexes are the focus, but the fact that no witch can cast animate dead or planar binding independently of her chosen patron seemed just wrong to me. So I expanded the Witch's spell list, in turn counterbalancing it with her Hexes being based off either Wisdom or Charisma instead of Intelligence (chosen at first level). Needing two different ability modifiers to be effective, however, seemed a bit of a heavy toll, even with an expanded spell list. So I also gave the Witch the ability to spontaneously convert spells into Patron Spells and the Cauldron hex for free at 1st level. The seconf more for flavour reasons and to create symmetry with the Wizard's Scribe Scroll and the Sorcerer's Schew Materials. I made my decisions keeping flavour over balance in mind, the reason I alter classes is because I want for them to reflect a specific flavour and for them to better fit my home world. However, balance is still important, and that's why I'd appretiate the community's opinion on it.
WITCH
Cauldron: Every witch gets the Cauldron hex at 1st level as a bonus hex.
Hex: At 1st level every witch character must choose if her magic relies partly on ancient folk wisdom or in an innate gift for witchcraft. If she chooses the first, her hexes will use her Wisdom modifier instead of her Intelligence modifier for all DCs and effects. If she chooses the second option, her hexes will use her Charisma modifier instead of her Intelligence modifier for all DCs and effects. The witch’s spellcasting, however, still relies on her Intelligence for all DCs and effects. This alters Hex.
Patron: Unlike a deity to a cleric, the patron provides very little of the witch’s power to her, its role being that of a witch’s supernatural tutor, teaching her magic through the familiar as an intermediary. If the witch’s patron is destroyed she does not lose her powers, but rather she has to find a new patron to keep teaching her magic in order to keep gaining new levels in the Witch class. A witch is very similar to a wizard in that they use magic in a very similar manner, but learn it differently. A witch has no pact with her patron which, as an unknowable entity, simply chooses to teach her magic for its own mysterious reasons. Often a witch has no grasp on the true nature of her patron, and leaving it might be a difficult task.
Every witch can spontaneously convert any spell they have prepared into a patron spell of the same level.
Spells: Every witch gets the following spells added to their spell list at the given levels:
1st – Level Witch Spells
Curse Water: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/curse-water/
Deathwatch: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/deathwatch
Detect Undead: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-undead/
Endure Elements: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/endure-elements/
Entangle: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/entangle/
Faerie Fire: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/faerie-fire/
Jump: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/j/jump/
Memory Lapse: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/memory-lapse/
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protection-from-evil/
Silent Image: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/silent-image
Thorn Javelin: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/thorn-javelin/
Ventriloquism: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/ventriloquism
2nd – Level Witch Spells
Accelerate Poison: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/accelerate-poison/
Bear’s Endurance: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bear-s-endurance/
Bull’s Strength: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bull-s-strength/
Cat’s Grace: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cat-s-grace/
Command Undead: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command-undead/
Continual Flame: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/continual-flame/
Darkness: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/darkness/
Darkvision: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/darkvision/
Dust of Twilight: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dust-of-twilight/
Eagle’s Splendor: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/eagle-s-splendor/
Fox’s Cunning: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fox-s-cunning/
Owl’s Wisdom: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/o/owl-s-wisdom/
Silence: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/silence/
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hideous-laughter/
Twisted Space: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/twisted-space/
Wrath: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wrath/
3rd – Level Witch Spells
Beast Shape I: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape/
Calm Emotions: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/calm-emotions
Contagion: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/contagion/
Deeper Darkness: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/deeper-darkness/
Magic Circles Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-sp/magic-circle-against-evil
Major Image: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/major-image/
Oneiric Horror: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/o/oneiric-horror/
Wind Wall: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wind-wall/
4th – Level Witch Spells
Animate Dead: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead/
Beast Shape II: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape/
Dimensional Anchor: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimensional-anchor
Dominate Person: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dominate-person
Hallucinatory Terrain: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hallucinatory-terrain/
Overwhelming Grief: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/o/overwhelming-grief
Shadow Conjuration: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-conjuration/
5th – Level Witch Spells
Aspect of the Wolf: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/aspect-of-the-wolf/
Beast Shape III: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape/
Control Summoned Creature:
Dismissal: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dismissal/
Dream: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dream/
Giant Vermin: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/giant-vermin/
Lesser Planar Binding:
Mirage Arcana: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirage-arcana/
Nightmare: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/n/nightmare/
Polymorph:
Repulsion: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/repulsion/
Shadow Evocation: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-evocation/
Snake Staff: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/snake-staff/
Tree Stride: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tree-stride/
Wall of Thorns: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-thorns/
6th – Level Witch Spells
Animal Growth: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animal-growth
Antilife Shell: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/antilife-shell
Banishment: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/banishment
Beast Shape IV: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape/
Circle of Death: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/circle-of-death
Create Undead: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead/
Envious Urge: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/envious-urge/
Form of the Dragon I: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/form-of-the-dragon-i/
Planar Binding: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-binding/
Serenity: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/serenity/
Shadow Walk: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-walk/
7th – Level Witch Spells
Animate Plants: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-plants/
Ethereal Jaunt: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/ethereal-jaunt
Form of the Dragon II: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/form-of-the-dragon-i/
Control Undead: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-undead/
Greater Shadow Conjuration: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-conjuration/
Phantasmal Revenge: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantasmal-revenge/
Finger of Death: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/finger-of-death
Stone Tell: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/stone-tell/
8th – Level Witch Spells
Create Greater Undead: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead/
Dimensional Lock: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimensional-lock
Form of the Dragon III: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/form-of-the-dragon-i/
Greater Planar Binding: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-binding
Greater Shadow Evocation: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-evocation/
Screen: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/screen/
9th – Level Witch Spells
Etherealness: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/etherealness
Gate: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gate
Overwhelming Presence: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/o/overwhelming-presence
Shades: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shades/
Shambler: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shambler/
Shapechange: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shapechange
Weird: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/weird
Winds of Vengeance: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/winds-of-vengeance/
| Derklord |
You do realize that you're significantly nerfing the Witch, right? This makes it almost impossible to use both offensive hexes (i.e. the main reason to play the class), and offensive spells (i.e. most of your spell list).
I get what you're trying to do, but offensive options completely reliant on a secondary stat are almost useless. Slightly better spell list, a single bonus hex, and conversion of the few good patron spell you get aren't really worth loosing most of the hex class feature.
| Lazlo.Arcadia |
Another option is allow your PC Witches to have greater flexibility when designing their characters, but limit your NPC witches the way you are suggesting. The effect of this however is completely lost unless you deliberately make it an issue in the campaign where the PC Witch is really leaned upon for being different from the other Witches.
| bitter lily |
Rather than adding spells, I'd consider eliminating them entirely, and giving the Witch more hexes. But that doesn't make a Witch MAD, which I gather is one of your objectives.
Why not simply make her hex DCs dependent on Wisdom, since it's easy to think of them as directly powered by her patron? (While keeping her spells Int-based.) You could add more spells or not, as you please.
In any case, I don't think an expanded spell list "balances" weakening other options. Your Witch is still very limited in how many spells she can cast/day. And some of your choices for additions make sense to me, like anything transmutation, but some don't. Sorry!
| Ciaran Barnes |
I haven't played a witch or seen one in play so I can't really comment on balance. However I don't have a problem with the witch needing two ability scores. Many classes need two or more ability scores, and I see no reason to assume that a nine level spellcaster should only have to rely on one. Play test this if you get the chance. It looks interesting.
rainzax
|
I like the idea that casters need more than a single stat to function, as this helps to reconcile their differences with martial characters, as well as allow for more ability score diversity.
In that vein, aside from a left-field relative criticism "why don't you do the same with the other casters?", I like what you have done here.
For the Witch (as well as all the other casting classes similarly), I wish that the Patron played a bigger mechanical role - more than just a single spell per spell level - because they seem almost like an afterthought as currently written.
For example, imagine if each Witch chose two Aspects that granted access to additional Hexes, unlocked multiple Spells per spell level, gave a choice of Bonus Feats, and offered an array of Familiars, that were all thematically tied to each Aspect. Then, once a character builds these Aspects, the DM was free to interpret these as a Patron (Outsiders, Spirits, Energies, Gods; whatever the cosmos), making the Patron's function purely narrative.
That's how I'd Unchain them.
| bitter lily |
I'm coming around. Not so much to the witch as charmer -- I'd still rather see Hex DCs based on Wis (or rather, based on a spiritual connection). OTOH, I don't know about battlefield controllers. But casters who like touch or ranged touch spells also need Str or Dex, correspondingly. The thing about Witch hexes is that they do a lot of the same things, only as simply ranged effects, with a save to shrug it off. A save that is based RAW on the same stat that she gets bonus spells for (and sets spell DCs from). MADdening the Witch isn't actually all that bad.
What you're doing in exchange (broken out to be easier for dunderheads like me to spot):
It still seems to me that, given how few spells a Witch can memorize in a day, giving her more choices for what to memorize is paltry. Do it or don't, but don't call it "balance."
However... spontaneous conversion could help a lot, depending on the patron selected. No matter what you memorize, you know that you've got that handful of spells in your back pocket. One possible quibble: shouldn't this be "a patron spell of the same or lower level"? (And does this take a full-round action like other spontaneous conversions?)
Every witch can spontaneously convert any spell they have prepared into a patron spell of the same level.
Finally, I've done two witch characters thus far, and neither would consider anything but Cauldron as their first-level hex. So you've boosted the witch's main strength by letting her pick a different hex at first level, knowing that she's getting Cauldron, too. And Cauldron is sooooo thematic! It really is parallel to Scribe Scroll or Eschew Materials.
OK, I'm on board with saying, "Try it, your players might like it."
| bitter lily |
I like the idea that casters need more than a single stat to function, as this helps to reconcile their differences with martial characters, as well as allow for more ability score diversity.
In that vein, aside from a left-field relative criticism "why don't you do the same with the other casters?", I like what you have done here.
For the Witch (as well as all the other casting classes similarly), I wish that the Patron played a bigger mechanical role - more than just a single spell per spell level - because they seem almost like an afterthought as currently written.
For example, imagine if each Witch chose two Aspects that granted access to additional Hexes, unlocked multiple Spells per spell level, gave a choice of Bonus Feats, and offered an array of Familiars, that were all thematically tied to each Aspect. Then, once a character builds these Aspects, the DM was free to interpret these as a Patron (Outsiders, Spirits, Energies, Gods; whatever the cosmos), making the Patron's function purely narrative.
That's how I'd Unchain them.
It's really only battlefield controllers who are SAD. But witches can RAW ignore touch or ranged touch spells and count on save-spells plus their hexes and do just fine.
I agree with you about Patrons needing to be strengthened, but I'm not doing the writing! And I'd be happy if each Witch still picked just the one patron, only now patrons offer a single additional hex for each level (hex, major hex, & grand hex) and a choice of bonus feats, in addition to the same spells. Bonus feats... bonus feats... I know I put bonus feats somewhere in my cupboard...