Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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I am in character creation of a law woman. I believe I have a good build for her. But I am having a hard time placing her in a faction.
She is going to be lawful nuetral. I was thinking Liberty's Edge, but in the goals, it states something along the line of breaking the law to let good prevail or something like that. Also thinking silver crusade, but she is not into the whole religion thing, she is more scientifically minded. I am just asking for guidance, especially if you have faced this same dilemma.
I know this should be in advice but it has to do with PFS so i thought I would start here. But have no problems if it gets flagged to advice.
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The choice is clear...
The Dark Archive.
Strong influence of Law. (the Cheliax roots coming thru) and has a strong female leader.
from the OP: "...law woman...be lawful neutral... but she is not into the whole religion thing, she is more scientifically minded.... faced this same dilemma..."
yeah - The Dark Archive has a place for you!
"Come to the Dark Side - We have cookies!"
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Silver Crusade is the obvious first choice. Don't worry about the religion thing - they're all about doing good, regardless of the reason. I agree that Liberty's Edge is a bad fit.
A case could be made for other factions, too. Dark Archive may lean lawful, but they're more about power and magic these days than strict adherance to law (unlike the old Cheliax faction that it started out as).
As Starglim said, Sovereign Court might work, if you're on board with enforcement of noble rule.
I don't see how Scarab Sages or Grand Lodge would offer you anything. The Exchange could actually work, if you focus on the lawful business side of things, rather than the former Sczarni "legitimate businessmen" side.
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The Law. (Just my opinion - which I think is as good as any other). What is Lawful in one place is un-Lawful in another. And all PCs come from someplace - so you could be a Cheliaxian Paladin, or a Kellish Paladin, or heck, a Paladin from Nidal (well... maybe.) Each would view the Law differently.
Paladins of Abadar, a L/N diety would stress Law above all else... but you can easily have "the Law" on both sides of an issue.
Paladin quote - "I follow the laws of my homeland and serve in her military. That is why I am in you land, bringing Law to the barbarians." some Cheliaxian paladin during the conquest of Nidal (or one of several other countries).
Paladin quote - "I am fighting to repel the invaders from my homeland, to remove the foreign blight on my blessed Taldor!" a Paladin explaining why he is involved in the hunt for N/G Sarenrae cultists in Taldor (or fighting the Qadirian invaders in the last big war).
Paladin quote - "I am here to protect those who have seen the light of the Dawnflower among the heathen masses in the shadowed land of Taldor. This is holy work sanctioned by my government, my church, and my god." a Paladin of the Dawnflower, engaged in aiding cultists hiding in the lands of Taldor (or fighting as part of the invasion in the last Qadirian-Taldor war).
All these are paladins engaged in Lawful duties - assigned by Lawful authority - it's just that the authority is different in each case. Heck, the last two could easily be fighting each other!
What is Lawful in one place is Un-Lawful in another. Which Law does your PC support? Where does she get her Law from?
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I could actually see Grand Lodge being a better choice - doing the assigned mission. No mater what personal feeling come up. Obeying Lawful Authority (the Venture Officers and ultimately, The Ten). Yeah, Lawful.
I have a similar character. Female former city guard in the law enforcement division rather than the standing-on-the-wall division. Lawful neutral alignment because enforcing the law and following the rules is what matters. I faced the same dilemma choosing a faction for her, and choose Grand Lodge for exactly the reasons nosig states above.
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I am in character creation of a law woman. I believe I have a good build for her. But I am having a hard time placing her in a faction.
She is going to be lawful nuetral. I was thinking Liberty's Edge, but in the goals, it states something along the line of breaking the law to let good prevail or something like that. Also thinking silver crusade, but she is not into the whole religion thing, she is more scientifically minded. I am just asking for guidance, especially if you have faced this same dilemma.
I know this should be in advice but it has to do with PFS so i thought I would start here. But have no problems if it gets flagged to advice.
Liberties Edge is very much for chaotic characters, as I understand them. They value freedom (that's code for Chaos) over all else. A Chaotic Neutral faction.
Dark Archive would be the Lawful Evil group, even if evil is technically not allowed as a player option in PFS. They typically work with Devils, which are also Lawful Evil.
I could be adding my own values, but Scarab Sages always strikes me as True Neutral. I always play this faction. Sort of a selfish faction, that wants to preserve historic sites for their own use. Most of their traits focus on benefits to themselves (rather than boosting social skills or boosts that can be shared). They even have a trait for characters that don't think Undead are all that evil...
The Exchange is Lawful Neutral, as they are focused mostly on making money, legally. That said, while they are lawful neutral, they might not be the best fit for all lawful neutral characters.
The Grand Lodge is supposed to be True Neutral, but they tend to lean towards Chaotic Good via their morality in practice.
The Silver crusade is Neutral Good.
The Soveriegn Court is probably Lawful Neutral. They focus more on the government and politics end of the Lawful alignments.
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I don't agree with you on some of those.
Liberty's Edge is about freedom, and that definitely makes them chaotic. But they're also fighting against oppression, trying to help people. That makes them good. So they'd be CG, not CN. Back in the old days, they were the default faction for good aligned PCs.
The way you describe the Dark Archive is a more accurate description of how the Cheliax faction used to be. Since switching over, they're less focused on the devil worshiping hierarchy, and more on just magical power. I've seen (and have) quite a few characters of all alignments who have joined the Dark Archive to learn more about magic. In other words, with the transition from Cheliax to Dark Archive, it stopped being the obvious home for borderline evil PCs and became the new obvious home for any arcane PC.
I agree on Scarab Sages and Grand Lodge seeming to be true neutral.
Silver Crusade is theoretically lawful good. Their leader is a paladin, after all. And the faction was originally created as a home for good PCs that didn't feel comfortable with the Andoran (now Liberty's Edge) faction's chaotic side.
The Exchange has two sides to it. The legitimate merchants probably are lawful neutral, as you said. But they also brought in the old Sczarni faction, which is the Varisian mafia. That side is probably chaotic neutral, possibly bordering on evil. They haven't done a great job in merging the two, though, so the more lawful merchants do seem to be the majority there. My own two Exchange members are a LN blacksmith and a CN pirate.
And I can go along with LN for Sovereign Court, though I think I read somewhere that their faction leader is actually chaotic. That really doesn't seem to suit her, though. True neutral, maybe, but she doesn't strike me as remotely chaotic.
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I don't agree with you on some of those.
Liberty's Edge is about freedom, and that definitely makes them chaotic. But they're also fighting against oppression, trying to help people. That makes them good. So they'd be CG, not CN. Back in the old days, they were the default faction for good aligned PCs.
The way you describe the Dark Archive is a more accurate description of how the Cheliax faction used to be. Since switching over, they're less focused on the devil worshiping hierarchy, and more on just magical power. I've seen (and have) quite a few characters of all alignments who have joined the Dark Archive to learn more about magic. In other words, with the transition from Cheliax to Dark Archive, it stopped being the obvious home for borderline evil PCs and became the new obvious home for any arcane PC.
The Exchange has two sides to it. The legitimate merchants probably are lawful neutral, as you said. But they also brought in the old Sczarni faction, whichisare the Varisianmafia'Travelers'. That side is probably chaotic neutral, possibly bordering on evil. They haven't done a great job in merging the two, though, so the more lawful merchants do seem to be the majority there. My own two Exchange members are a LN blacksmith and a CN pirate.
I don't agree with you on some of those.
Liberty's Edge is about freedom, and that definitely makes them chaotic. But they're also fighting against oppression, trying to help people. That makes them good. So they'd be CG, not CN. Back in the old days, they were the default faction for
good alignedmurderhobo PCs.
Corrected that for you based on my experience with judging Andoran PCs. When faced with a problem with a variety of solutions, they'd typically choose outright murder over diplomacy. That's when the missions weren't mainly cleaning up the messes of the faction leader.
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Corrected that for you based on my experience with judging Andoran PCs. When faced with a problem with a variety of solutions, they'd typically choose outright murder over diplomacy. That's when the missions weren't mainly cleaning up the messes of the faction leader.
I *just* missed the Andoran 'window' -- my -1 was originally going to be Andoran but ended up in Liberty's Edge when the names were changed.
However, it's been my play experience that Liberty's Edge does what they can to minimize casualties (especially when there's a bunch of slaves around, etc).
Did this change as a result of the refactioning?
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No ones saying that it CAN"T work. But there are definitely trends. You can also justify TN doing just about anything because hey, my friends were doing it too.
The dark archive has just the vault..erm. place for them...
Agreed, on both responses.
I *just* missed the Andoran 'window' -- my -1 was originally going to be Andoran but ended up in Liberty's Edge when the names were changed.
However, it's been my play experience that Liberty's Edge does what they can to minimize casualties (especially when there's a bunch of slaves around, etc).
Did this change as a result of the refactioning?
Several of the Andoran faction missions for early season adventures were to assassinate bad guys. No trial, no capturing, no "dead or alive", just a faction mission that said "kill him".
That's why a lot of players with paladins and other lawful good types complained that there wasn't an appropriate faction for them, even though Andoran was supposed to be the good faction. Thus, the Silver Crusade was added.
I had a lawful good cleric of Sarenrae in the Silver Crusade that I played a lot back in seasons 3 and 4, when they'd get the Andoran faction mission while playing season 0-2 adventures, and you had to do the faction mission for full prestige. Oddly, I never had a problem doing any of those Andoran faction missions, despite my PC being the type to offer enemies a chance at redemption. In every single case, the villain in question proved themselves to be unredeemable before the end, so I had no problem with killing them in the heat of battle.
The one and only faction mission I ever refused to do with that cleric was to spread lies about slavers to make them look bad, and hurt their business. Because the slavers' business was legal in that country, and my cleric worships the goddess of honesty, among other things, I refused to do it. But the two Andoran faction members at the table didn't have that problem, so it still got done, and I still got full prestige.
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I don't agree with you on some of those.
Liberty's Edge is about freedom, and that definitely makes them chaotic. But they're also fighting against oppression, trying to help people. That makes them good. So they'd be CG, not CN. Back in the old days, they were the default faction for good aligned PCs.
The way you describe the Dark Archive is a more accurate description of how the Cheliax faction used to be. Since switching over, they're less focused on the devil worshiping hierarchy, and more on just magical power. I've seen (and have) quite a few characters of all alignments who have joined the Dark Archive to learn more about magic. In other words, with the transition from Cheliax to Dark Archive, it stopped being the obvious home for borderline evil PCs and became the new obvious home for any arcane PC.
I agree on Scarab Sages and Grand Lodge seeming to be true neutral.
Silver Crusade is theoretically lawful good. Their leader is a paladin, after all. And the faction was originally created as a home for good PCs that didn't feel comfortable with the Andoran (now Liberty's Edge) faction's chaotic side.
The Exchange has two sides to it. The legitimate merchants probably are lawful neutral, as you said. But they also brought in the old Sczarni faction, which is the Varisian mafia. That side is probably chaotic neutral, possibly bordering on evil. They haven't done a great job in merging the two, though, so the more lawful merchants do seem to be the majority there. My own two Exchange members are a LN blacksmith and a CN pirate.
And I can go along with LN for Sovereign Court, though I think I read somewhere that their faction leader is actually chaotic. That really doesn't seem to suit her, though. True neutral, maybe, but she doesn't strike me as remotely chaotic.
Seems reasonable too. Mine were just my impressions or "vibes" of how the factions seem to me.
Regarding the Sovereign Court, I have been debating mentally, if a ruler can actually have a Lawful alignment. Seems like once a person is in charge and their word becomes law, the idea of being restricted to tradition or law becomes a more iffy concept. So the idea of the Sovereign Court being LN, lead by a CN character, does kinda make sense to me.
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Silver Crusade is theoretically lawful good. Their leader is a paladin, after all. And the faction was originally created as a home for good PCs that didn't feel comfortable with the Andoran (now Liberty's Edge) faction's chaotic side.
The Silver Crusade grants the Unorthodox Strategy trait among others and follows the ideals of silver, not gold dragons. Ollysta is a paladin of Sarenrae whose missions seem to me to favour Good much more than Law. Having said that, I also saw a place in the faction for my LN wizard.
And I can go along with LN for Sovereign Court, though I think I read somewhere that their faction leader is actually chaotic. That really doesn't seem to suit her, though. True neutral, maybe, but she doesn't strike me as remotely chaotic.
Baron Jacquo was pretty chaotic. I agree, it doesn't fit Gloriana.
A ruler can try to uphold tradition and honour, or dispense freedom, depending on his personal ideals and as long as those he rules take his orders. I might suggest reading Machiavelli (rather than the people who paraphrased him) on how a ruler can and cannot choose to follow his own ethics or lack of them.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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THE LAW it really depends on whether you mean EXTREME LAW - in which case Dark Archive makes sense by way of their affiliation with certain orders of the hellknights.
Otherwise, I will say the Exchange. The Law is something that exists to help protect commerce after all. Its no coincidence that Abadar is the god of cities AND the god of commerce. Be more associated with the Trade Prince than the Sczarni and you're golden.
Corrected that for you based on my experience with judging Andoran PCs. When faced with a problem with a variety of solutions, they'd typically choose outright murder over diplomacy. That's when the missions weren't mainly cleaning up the messes of the faction leader.I *just* missed the Andoran 'window' -- my -1 was originally going to be Andoran but ended up in Liberty's Edge when the names were changed.
However, it's been my play experience that Liberty's Edge does what they can to minimize casualties (especially when there's a bunch of slaves around, etc).
Did this change as a result of the refactioning?
Andoran was popular not because of it's professed alignment but because it was considered the "America" faction. With the renaming and reshuffling and the elimination of the assassination missions, it lost it's popularity.
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Andoran was popular not because of it's professed alignment but because it was considered the "America" faction. With the renaming and reshuffling and the elimination of the assassination missions, it lost it's popularity.
Hmmm.
I guess the rebranding worked for me, then? A good chunk of my characters are in the faction BECAUSE it's 'freedom' but not AMERICUH!
Andoran was popular not because of it's professed alignment but because it was considered the "America" faction. With the renaming and reshuffling and the elimination of the assassination missions, it lost it's popularity.Hmmm.
I guess the rebranding worked for me, then? A good chunk of my characters are in the faction BECAUSE it's 'freedom' but not AMERICUH!
I have noticed that a lot of folks who played Andoran in this region, aren't playing Liberty's Edge.