Qualifying for feats with magic items that grant feats... sometimes...

[spiffy337]

So I've seen a bunch of the threads on this topic, but my situation is slightly different than the ones I've seen already...

For example, I know that qualifying for a feat with a stat requirement using a belt/headband is do-able since the stat improvement becomes "permanent" after 24 hours. There are also items (Ioun stones I believe) that grant you 24x7 access to certain feats, which can then be used to qualify for feats.

I also know that if you lose one of the items (or really no longer qualify for the feat in general, through stat drain etc.), you lose access to the feat until you re-establish your access to the pre-reqs for the feat in question.

My question is: Can a feat granted *sometimes* enable you to take another feat that depends on it? My specific example:
I'm a Skald that has the Endurance feat, and I wear a Torc of the Primal Song, can I qualify for Fast Healer (requires Con 13, Endurance, Diehard)?

I can activate Diehard using my rage rounds every day, but it's obviously not permanent.

Alternatively, I could always grab Diehard as a feat myself, then grab Fast Healer, then retrain out of Diehard, but would obviously like to avoid the cost if possible.

This is for PFS, so pointers to FAQ or other Paizo dev posts that I could reference would be helpful in case it comes up at the table.

Appreciate the help clarifying this!

[dragonhunterq]

The rules are silent on how long you have to have a feat or ability available to use it to qualify for another feat or ability. Some official comments (such as re: putting ranks in fly skill indicate that 'regular' flight means 'all day every day') would tend towards a very conservative interpretation.

I'm of the view that if you have it, even for a short while, you can use it to qualify. I am aware that it is a view not shared by everyone.

Expect table variation - which usually means avoid like the plague for PFS.

[Daw]

The retraining rules specify that if you train away a feat that is prerequisite to another feat that you possess, you lose the USE of the follow-on feat as well. You don't get free retraining on the follow-on feat. (You still have the feat, it just won't work.)

I don't think that Item based feats are allowed to be used as prerequisites for other feats, as the feat is inherent to the item, and not to the recipient. You might be able to argue that a single item could provide both the requisite and the follow-on feat. Also, if you are going the collectible item sets, you could probably have the set provide a feat tree as more of the set are possessed. This is a respected video game mechanic.

I don't know for sure if the temporary, but inherent ability, such as your diehard counts as a prerequisite, I would say it does, but I would also rule that the fast healing would only be active while the rage power granting you Diehard is active.

[spiffy337]

Daw wrote:

The retraining rules specify that if you train away a feat that is prerequisite to another feat that you possess, you lose the USE of the follow-on feat as well. You don't get free retraining on the follow-on feat. (You still have the feat, it just won't work.)

...
I don't know for sure if the temporary, but inherent ability, such as your diehard counts as a prerequisite, I would say it does, but I would also rule that the fast healing would only be active while the rage power granting you Diehard is active.

Right, my assumption is that my "backup plan" would be to take Diehard directly, then take Fast Healer, then retrain Diehard to something else. Then, my Fast Healer would only take effect when I was raging and my Torc was granting me Diehard, which was what my intent was. In-between combat, I can certainly live without Fast Healer, but I'm hoping to capitalize on Fast Healer (with my bonus Con from raging) + Skald's Vigor.

[James Risner]

Quote:

The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability

So you can't retrain it if you used it as a prereq.

[spiffy337]

James Risner wrote:

Quote:

The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability

So you can't retrain it if you used it as a prereq.

Oh dang, you're right. Well I guess if I can't find a good enough faq/source that avoids table variation on using the Torc's Diehard to qualify, then I might be out of luck...