Talking with some people about the Alchemist abilities/discoveries Tentacle and Vestigial Arm I brought up the point that after you grow the new appendage you need to either have you armor re-crafted in some way for the new limb or simply have new armor created.
The following questions arose and I am interested in your answers and comments.
If theses questions have been answered before please point me to the location(s) as it is a bit of a heated discussion right now. Thanks
1) Can you re-craft you armor for your new limb or do you have to have new armor specially made?
2) What is the cost? Is it the same as for unusual creatures (medium is cost x2 and no extra weight, from d20PSRD.com)?
3) Should the basic anatomy, physiology (study of normal functions of living organisms and their parts) and kinesiology (study of mechanics of body movement) prevent specific types of armor from being worn? (ie vestigial arm's shoulder may prevent you from wearing full plate, field plate, etc do to simple space requirements of extra limb and where the armor needs to be but breast plate should/might be fine.)
Thanks again.
MDC
1. There are rules for having things like Full Plate resized to fit your person (since they are built to fit specific individuals). I imagine proposing a similar solution to the GM is reasonable.
2. The cost is rolled for Full Plate, and as such, varies. If the GM doesn't want to propose a similar solution, then yes, you would have to get new armor specifically made to adhere to your new limb.
3. Not really. Not all armors are designed with the same principles, or for the same creatures, and as such, the bonuses you receive can be abstract of what the armor actually covers in a realistic sense. As long as the armor is built (or can be adjusted) to fit your person, it doesn't really matter.
Of course, a GM can rule otherwise, but based on RAW, that's what I conclude. YMMV.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: 1. There are rules for having things like Full Plate resized to fit your person (since they are built to fit specific individuals). I imagine proposing a similar solution to the GM is reasonable.
2. The cost is rolled for Full Plate, and as such, varies. If the GM doesn't want to propose a similar solution, then yes, you would have to get new armor specifically made to adhere to your new limb.
3. Not really. Not all armors are designed with the same principles, or for the same creatures, and as such, the bonuses you receive can be abstract of what the armor actually covers in a realistic sense. As long as the armor is built (or can be adjusted) to fit your person, it doesn't really matter.
Of course, a GM can rule otherwise, but based on RAW, that's what I conclude. YMMV.
Thanks for your opinion as of right now, we are split along the lines of thought, "it's a game and just go with it" or "the ruling should be more reality based".
We are also talking about rule's for flying creatures and possibly expanding them along the the idea of more realistic interpretations and being able to wear heaver armor or no armor based on some simply creature facts.
Thanks again for the quick feedback, I am very curious as to what the total feedback is going to be from here and other locations.
MDC
Mark Carlson 255 wrote: Talking with some people about the Alchemist abilities/discoveries Tentacle and Vestigial Arm I brought up the point that after you grow the new appendage you need to either have you armor re-crafted in some way for the new limb or simply have new armor created.
The following questions arose and I am interested in your answers and comments.
If theses questions have been answered before please point me to the location(s) as it is a bit of a heated discussion right now. Thanks
1) Can you re-craft you armor for your new limb or do you have to have new armor specially made?
2) What is the cost? Is it the same as for unusual creatures (medium is cost x2 and no extra weight, from d20PSRD.com)?
3) Should the basic anatomy, physiology (study of normal functions of living organisms and their parts) and kinesiology (study of mechanics of body movement) prevent specific types of armor from being worn? (ie vestigial arm's shoulder may prevent you from wearing full plate, field plate, etc do to simple space requirements of extra limb and where the armor needs to be but breast plate should/might be fine.)
Thanks again.
MDC
1: Re-crafting is basically the same thing as making new armor, except the new armor is designed in the same general way as the old armor. So there shouldn't be a difference between re-crafting and crafting. For full plate, the armor is being resized, but they aren't adding new pieces, just changing the fit - not the same thing as re-crafting.
2: Up to the GM. Depends if the GM wants to make found loot easy to repurpose for PC use, or if the point of oddly shaped armor is to deny the players the option of using it. Basically, the GM needs to decide if they care about the difference between armor for halflings and armor for ratfolk. PFS, for example, just considers that "small armor" and doesn't distinguish between what race it is designed to be worn by. I have had GMs that did care.
3: No, you can make armor for just about any body type. That said, you may have to get the armor made from scratch, if you are requesting custom armor for a very usually shaped person. Oozes are probably the only creature type that should be unable to wear armor. Everything else should be "able" to wear armor, even if it would require a very cunning blacksmith to design it.
Murdock Mudeater,
Thanks your comments are noted.
MDC
This may - depending on your GM's interpretation - also help:
Magic Items wrote: Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
Gulthor wrote: This may - depending on your GM's interpretation - also help:
Magic Items wrote: Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
Note the bolded part. It would help if he's a Medium-sized creature who acquired a Large-sized weapon or suit of armor and shares a similar physiology (for example, a +1 Greatclub from an Ogre Chieftan).
It wouldn't help, however, if he has four arms, four legs, or some other significant physiological difference in comparison to the item in question.
While the GM can argue differently, he would be houseruling in that sense, since the RAW you've provided is quite clear on what factors into universal creature application for magic items.
Also note that it only works for Magic items. While common, you can't do that with, for example, Mithril Fullplate.
Thanks for that info I will pass it on. And it does tie into a response from Japan that I will post below.
Background:
A friend in the UK asked me to give my opinion, as he was ask'ed by a friend in Germany.
It seem the person in Germany (I do not know it it is a guy or girl so person), is going to provide feedback to whoever in two or three ways, a permissive opinion, less permissive opinion and a more restrictive opinion so as to fit the play style of the GM's and group.
Right now from the info I got the responses are strait down RPG play style lines and simplicity vs more complexity sides of the equation. Most of the respondents are in favor requiring some sort of payment to alter equipment but again from the feedback that is how most of them run their games.
Meta Game Response From Japan:
A person who replied from Japan gave couple of answer's based on play style as well as the following comment.
Note I am adding words do to the language difference to make it clearer.
If you look at the question from a meta game angle (and you are trying to be the most permissive in your ruling) then when the PC takes the ability all of their equipment should automatically change to their new form. They did not know of any other ability or feat that would require to to pay money to alter your equipment to use the new ability. ie magic item creation does not count as in general it is building new items and not altering old items.
Note: I think that the line about using magic items and race, anatomy size refers to more items found and not about a PC gaining abilities and altering their shape. ie just because you chose to permanently alter your shape does not mean you get to permanently alter the shape of all your relevant items for free.
Q: So is there an existing; ability, feat or PC Concept, that requires you to spend money (potentially a whole lot of it) to use your new ability?
Thanks all again for your incite and experience on this issue.
MDC
Spellcasting with expensive Material Components is probably the first thing that comes to mind.
And by expensive, I mean the player has to actively spend gold to acquire a certain number of components to cast a given spell X amount of times. Stoneskin, (Limited) Wish, Raise Dead, and so on, all require expensive material components in order to cast such spells. Things that simply require materials from a Spell Component Pouch don't exactly count.
There's also the matter of things like having more than one Mutagen with the proper discovery, which costs a good amount of gold to have a back-up (or lendable) Mutagen, certain Alchemist Extracts with similar expensive material components in the same vein of Spells, and other such abilities. There's a Halfling feat where you can retroactively deduct funds to possess a consumable item with an appropriate check.
The discovered Full Plate is another, more mundane (but also very specific) example of spending money in order to make use of it.
But, those are all ones that actually state such things. As GM, they are more than welcome to rule that it doesn't cost anything to do XYZ, since there is no mention of any cost, but that is a last-line-of-defense thing when the rules don't otherwise give a concise (or appropriate) answer, and a GM can more than easily argue another, equally sensible approach (such as still requiring paying a skilled armorsmith/tailor/weaponsmith to resize or readjust any existing equipment that doesn't properly adhere to your physiology).
Darksol the Painbringer,
Thanks for the info and I will forward it on as it has some good points.
MDC
Mark Carlson 255 wrote:
Right now from the info I got the responses are strait down RPG play style lines and simplicity vs more complexity sides of the equation. Most of the respondents are in favor requiring some sort of payment to alter equipment but again from the feedback that is how most of them run their games.
You could just have the GM impose that resizing requires a proper workshop for that craft. So it wouldn't be about cost, but the players would have to take the item back to town in order to resize it for them. Then don't impose a gold cost and it stays simple. Could add a fixed neglible time cost, like, "it'll be done in the morning," which prevents players from just flying by the town to claim their auto-resizing.
That way, you maintain the idea that it does require resizing for story purposes, but you also don't add any real complexity or gold costs. And it still serves to limit parties, since the gear doesn't lose weight and they'd have to lugg it to town.
Murdock Mudeater,
Your comments are like those from the responder from Japan and I will send those one.
Another unusual House Rule that came from some where was that someone disallows most in not all armor, but provides the vestigial limb with and extra ring slot. But to get two extra ring slots you have to take a feat, so only one for free or should I say included as they thought one extra ring slot + the extra ability of extra arm was fine but two ring slots and two arms was a bit much.
Thanks again.
MDC
Murdock Mudeater,
I think I will also send a long an idea/option that the amount of time it takes to fit the armor to your new form depends on the type of armor. If they want to go the simple route, then light armor 1 day no cost, medium armor 2-3 days minor cost and heavy armor 3-7 days moderate cost.
The cost factor depends on the base armor and I think a % idea might work the best for more detailed rules and a flat cost for simple rules.
Thanks.
MDC
Neither weapons nor armor resize, even if magical. You cannot change the base item of a magic item without destroying the magic.
If your armor is non magical, get it reworked or replaced. New cost is doubled, probably, because of weird body shape. Subtract value of original armor from value of new armor to determine base price. Use the same craft dc.
Non-armor magic items adjust to fit, generally. Non magic gear does not... speak with your tailor.
toastedamphibian wrote: Neither weapons nor armor resize, even if magical. You cannot change the base item of a magic item without destroying the magic.
If your armor is non magical, get it reworked or replaced. New cost is doubled, probably, because of weird body shape. Subtract value of original armor from value of new armor to determine base price. Use the same craft dc.
Non-armor magic items adjust to fit, generally. Non magic gear does not... speak with your tailor.
You hit the one of the main follow up questions on the head.
What do you do about Magical/Enchanted Armor?
The solution that has made the rounds is to create an new armor enchantment* that would allow for the armor to make changes in its shape.
Right now the thrust is for 2 enchantments with the lesser being able to deal with minor changes and the greater to deal with more profound changes. Right now the cost being kicked around is in the thousands of gp and not a "bonus" so as to make it not as expensive in the long run of the game.
Most of us also thought that a cheep/inexpensive armor enhancement was a good way to solve the issue going forward and could help in other cases. A much more powerful version beyond the basic two above is also being talked about, shape changing for cases in which spells or abilities might leave a gap that could cause a problem. ie if a dragon had shape change and for some reason it was body only (probably balance in that it would make the dragon have equipment for each of its sizes and anatomies.)
* There was some discussion as to just add the minor Armor Alteration ability into other armor enchantments (but it was quickly found that that often the reason for adding it in was do to a house rule. Ie the most common one was for glamoured to actually allow minor changes instead of just armor to cloths)
Most of us agreed that there were some situations in which we would not allow the armor to be modified (artifacts) and some game reasons why people would not alter armor (historical, religious relic, national treasure) but that was very story dependent (and not as much along the lines of being very permissible and not permissible on rules).
Thanks
MDC
Transformative Greater would be the equivalent weapon ability, and costs 15000 gp.
toastedamphibian wrote: Transformative Greater would be the equivalent weapon ability, and costs 15000 gp. I think that is one area they are looking at but thought for ideas. But also thought that it was too expensive for small changes that some alterations might require. ie grow and extra eye and then need to modify your helmet (and hair cut) so you could see properly.
MDC
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