What do you think of this -dirty- Kitsune martial artist build for PFS?


Advice

Grand Lodge

Hi,

What do you think of this kind of build for PFS? The idea is to be a "martial artist" that focus on debuffing the enemies 'a la kitsune'; feints and dirty play galore. The idea is to use furry of blows to deliver a feint while doing a bit of damage while, at the same time, using the slayer bounty hunter sneak attack for free dirty tricks + extra CMB d6.

Kitsune (Keen Kitsune, Superior Shapeshifter)
traits (reactionary, student of philosophy)

Abilities:

Start

STR: 8 (10-2)
DEX: 18 (16+2)
CON: 12
INT: 17 (15+2)
WIS: 14
CHA: 7

At 12 (No items)

STR: 8
DEX: 20
CON: 12
INT: 18
WIS: 14
CHA: 7

build:

1 unchained monk - master of many styles -
2 unchained rogue - Kitsune trickster -
3 unchained rogue
4 unchained rogue -finesse training axe knuckles-
5 unchained rogue
6 Slayer - Bounty hunter -
7 Slayer
8 Fighter - Mutagenic warrior -
9 Fighter
10 Fighter
11 Slayer
12 Fighter

feats:

Feats
1 Fox style
1 Expertise
3 Feint Flurry
3 combat trick -agile maneuvers-
5 improved dirty trick
5 ninja trick - style master- kitsune style
7 greater dirty trick
8 kitsune trick
9 Fox insight
9 Improved Feinting Flurry
11 Fox trickery
12 Dirty Trick Master

level expectations:

1-2: Damage will be bad for melee, better to use a crossbow
3: Between feint and 1d6 + weapon the things becomes a bit better
4: DEX to damage makes a lot of difference
5-6: First debuffs going in, sneak and a dirty trick or 2
7: Between "free" dirty tricks and more duration it is a great level
8: two dirty debuff for the price of 1, nice.
9: A chain reaction of dirty tricks per feint
11: a boost in CMB is nice
12, cherry on the cake, if it worth something

As far as I can tell everything is legal, but if I made a mistake feel free to point it out.

The feint, if my calcs doesn't fail me, would be +8 before ranks and bluff bonuses at 12 : -2 CHA + 4 Fox Style + 6 (bonus INT to CHA kitsune trickster archetype and +4 int bandanna)

CMB for Dirty trick would be + 35 : +11 BAB + 9 DEX (+4 dex belt +4 mutagen) + 4 feat bonuses + 1 studied target + 10 (~3d6 average, bounty hunter).

The AC is not bad too +18 +ring/s (don't know which one would be good): +9 DEX, + 3 WIS (+4 WIS - 1 Mutagen) + 2 natural armor (mutagen) + 4 bracer of armor.

And for the debuff it would have two folds, from the dirty tricks and from the sneak attack at 4, so I think is kinda solid. So, what do you think? Would this work in PFS and not being a drag? The theme is something that I like personally, but I don't know if it would be well received or is too weak for a debuff martial artist at all.

- Akari


Be sure to pick up some scrolls of aram zeys focus to disarm magical traps when you otherwise couldn't.

The first few levels of that build are ROUGH. Dirty tricks and whatnot are fine, but at some point you need to damage something. You need to be in a party where the other melee has a two handed weapon to take advantage of the blind foes or you're just drawing combat out. This might be a cool third character but as your main/only character the worst case scenario is you have a small party where you're the front line and you can't hurt things. If you have a large group with a lot of characters in their binders full of pathfinders that works, new groups with small parties it won't.

It won't stack with kitsune trickster, but the vexing dodger rogue is superior for doing dirty tricks than all three fox style feats combined.
Kitsune trickster is thematic as hell, but the skill boost is pretty minor. You don't need to be a kitsune trickster to be a trickster kitsune.

Grand Lodge

Hey, thanks :D

I see what you are saying and I agree. Would you mind to expand about vexing dodger? For what I read it seems a bit restrictive and somehow redundant for the build:

(1) Limb-Climber at rogue 1 seems very good VS larger than me creatures. But I have very few sneak attack dice, it would be -2 until 10, where it would be a -3. But I don't know what would happen if I fail the Climb check... do I just won't climb the creature (and fall as per the climb rules), fall prone or just miss my action? If is the first one the reward vs the risk worth it completely, but if is any of the later the risk seems a bit higher for a small bonus on the long run.

(2) Improved Dirty Trick (IDT) is redundant, as I need expertise (I think) to qualify for Kitsune style and its line, and the IDT line of feats.

(3) Underfoot Trickster movement is also very nice against very large creatures, but I don't know how often that would be useful. The problem I see is that the other effect, giving up a sneak attack for a swift dirty attack, at level 5 (rogue 4) speed up the progression but at 7 would lose complete meaning because of the slayer bounty hunter level 2 feature: free dirty trick + sneak dice to CMB.

With Kitsune trickster I would gain a flat 4 to 6 INT bonus to Bluff (good for feint, a main part of the build) and to Sense motive, while offsetting my low CHA in social interactions (as if it were important in PFS in general, LoL) without losing Uncanny Dodge (for what it worth). I don't know how much mileage those 4-6 INT bonus would really worth VS (1) and the movement part of (3).

Would you mind to explain me what are the consequences for failing in this climb check (are the same as with any climb check?), and any other thing that I am missing from this archetype?

Many thanks,
Akari


Hmmm.. never mind. I just noticed the vexing dogers caveat that the foe has to be larger than you for the swift action dirty trick. (the kitsune i have it on doesn't leave fox form, so 99% of foes are larger than him...)

Grand Lodge

hahaha seems cool, I would love to see the build, it seems very interesting, maybe even more than mine (I love the idea of a "that tiny fox is deadlier that a dragon" thing). On the same page I was thinking on doing a mind controller Mr Fox with a seeker sorcerer psychic bloodline before this built, but I read that the bloodline was a big trap in PFS.

Liberty's Edge

You can click Grr here for the build.

If you want to do a foxform caster, the psycis classes work great for that. No VSM components mean you can be in fox form and still cast. You still need to get to level 4 or 5 to pull it off on a caster though because of the bab requirement.

Grand Lodge

Thank you very much,

Damn, I just realized that Superior Shapeshifter is not legal in PFS, I have to fix the build. Your build is extremely nice, I see why you told me about the vexing dodger, totally worth it that way. Anything is way larger than you.

Shadow Lodge

You don't get +3d6 to your CMB from sneak dice from, you get +3.


Recommend you be a Scout / Thug rouge instead of Kitsune Trickster. It will let you sicken people when you sneak attack them and also let you to charge and get sneak attack and therefore sac those dice to dirty tick instead of spending a feat on that. I think it's probably worth changing your attributes slightly to accommodate. I think Scout would still be usable if you were a kitsune trickster, since it swaps out uncanny dodge only.. and it would let you dirty trick on a charge at level 4 rogue. Snakebite Striker is worth considering, since it gives you +1d6 sneak attack, decent hps, and +1 BAB.

I agree that this is going to be a rough start until at least level 4. I might consider stocking up on every conceivable form of junk consumable to livetil level 4. Tanglefoot bags, smoke sticks, alchemist fires, acid flasks, light crossbow, ect. Live til level 4, then you get dex to damage and it all starts clicking a little better.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Unchained monks can't have archetypes, per this blog post, except for qinggong monk and archetypes that are specifically called out as being legal for unchained monk.

So you can't have an unchained monk with the master of many styles archetype.

Grand Lodge

Sammy T wrote:

You don't get +3d6 to your CMB from sneak dice from, you get +3.

Ah, I was wondering why his CMB was so high.

Grand Lodge

Here's my Dirty Trick guy (currently level 8 (so any specific stats are for this level)).

Desil (Onispawn Tiefling)
1st level - Steelblooded Bloodrager (Abyssal)
2nd - 7th level - Maneuver Master, 4 winds, Qinggong
8th - 10th level - Fighter, Lore Warden

Str 18 (16 + 2)
Dex 12 (+1 @ 8th level)
Con 14
Int 12 (+1 @ 8th level)
Wis 16 (14 + 2)
Cha 5 (7 - 2)

Skill greater than +5: Acrobatics +13 (+21 to jump, more if ki spent for move speed bonus, or +18 to avoid AoOs via Daredevil Boots), Climb +10, Escape Artist +6, Intimidate +11 (I keep it maxed so I can "participate" outside of combat even though I have a 5 cha), kn Arcana, History, Religion +5, Perception +15, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +6, Survival +11, Swim +10.

Feats
1 - Extra Rage (only a single level of bloodrager, so 4 + con + 6 = 12 (more than enough for most PFS scenarios))
2 Monk Bonus 1 - Improved Dirty Trick
2 Monk 4 winds - Elemental Fist
2 Monk - Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Monk Bonus 2 - Improved Disarm
3 - Dirty Fighting (while flanking, any maneuver untrained or +4 if "trained")
5 - Improved Grapple (I try to never grapple because grappling (just my opinion) isn't fun, but it's nice that anything that grabs me provokes due to Maneuver Defense)
7 Monk Bonus - Greater Dirty Trick (where things start getting even more fun)
7 - Two-Weapon Fighting (Maneuver master has a fake flurry, so this lets me do even more maneuvers (also why I needed the dex bump from 12 to 13 plus dex belt))
8 Fighter Bonus 1 - Kitsune Style (pretty useless, but necessary for others)
9 Fighter Bonus 2 - Kitsune Tricks (two disabilities for one swing)
9 Lore Warden 2 - Combat Expertise (at this point retrain Dirty Fighting to something else, haven't hit 9 yet so I haven't decided, also why I want 13 int because lore warden doesn't actually override that requirement for maneuvers, it just gives CE for free)
9 - Kitsune Vengeance (Can do Dirty Trick as an AoO)

10 / 11
Again, I haven't gotten this far so I haven't decided what order these two should go in. Fighter/Lore Warden 3 will give me another +2 to CMB/D. Monk 7 will give me the "sweet spot" for Monk's Robes (+2 AC and 2 increases unarmed strike by 2 steps).

Traits:
Social - Adopted (Human) - Bred for War (+1 CMB)
Religion - Defensive Strategist (Torag) - Not flat-footed at the start of combat. (can make AoOs before acting)

Magic Items of note
Dex Belt (+2 dex)
Wisdom Headband (+2 wis)
Furious, Dueling Amulet of Mighty Fists (furious makes it +2 while raging, Dueling adds double the enhancement bonus (so +4 for a total of +6) to maneuvers made using the weapon)
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (in a wayfinder) - +1 insight bonus to AC (+2 insight to CMB/D)
Daredevil Boots (+5 acrobatics to move through threatened square for 10 rounds per day, useful for Dirty Fighting until Boots of Speed are bought)
Darkwood Composite +3 Longbow (only costs 2 prestige)
Monk's Robes (don't own yet, for increasing AC/unarmed strike damage)
Any reach weapon (for use when being approached)
Wand of Mage Armor

On a full attack I get 2 claws, 2 unarmed strikes, plus any combat maneuver (Dirty Trick). I usually start by blinding them, then rip their weapon out of the hands and throw it over my shoulder (free action drop in adjacent square "behind" me), trip, then whatever else I want (usually by this time I run out of maneuvers and then have to actually attack them :( ). I carry around the reach weapon to hit them with a maneuver when they approach, but immediately drop it to make use of my claws.

General Tactics use mage armor and Barkskin (swapped out slowfall for Barkskin) when "danger is eminent". Unbuffed AC/touch is 19, flat-foooted is 17, but rarely flat-footed because of trait (10, +2 dex, +1 deflection, +4 wisdom, +1 monk). When buffed add 7 (+4 AC from mage armor, +3 AC from barkskin, but touch remains 19). Level of bloodrager allows me to use wands with no UMD, long arm is also occasionally useful.

Base CMB 16
Base CMD 31 (+4 vs dirty trick or +2 vs grapple/disarm)

Dirt Trick CMB (when raging) 28 (+4 if flanking from Dirty Fighting)
Grapple/Disarm CMB (when raging) 26 (+4 if flanking)
All other maneuvers that can be done with unarmed/claws (when raging) 24

I chose not to go the Slayer-Bounty Hunter route because the above worked out better for how I wanted to play it. I may be forgetting something as I haven't played this guy in a long time. I generally only play this guy when there are things in the party that can take advantage of the bad guys. Otherwise we just end up with pissed off bad guys (and GMs) that can't do anything because I've taken their weapon/holy symbol/spell component pouch and they can't do much with either a 50/50 chance of hitting something (blind) or they spend their standard action to unblind themselves. But this guy can still do a fair bit of damage if he has to due to 4 attacks.

Shadow Lodge

I kept my Dirty Trick build pretty simple: Untamed Rager.

High STR, Reckless Abandon, Strength Surge, Dirty Fighting, Savage Dirty Trick.

Best of both worlds: Archetype replaces minor abilities for DT feats (which I can land reliably) but I'm still a 2H raging barbarian for damage. Nice bonus: in DPR-challenged parties I can set them up for success or just smash things if we need to seal the deal.

Grand Lodge

Thanks to everyone for the information and pointing out my errors.

Without the master of many styles monk the build is not feasible from the fluff and style perspective. The fluff I wanted was a Kitsune martial artist focused on a very kitsune way of fighting; smarty, feinting with witty tricks and deadly dirty. The fox stance was great for it, it pushed INT and made very good use of it. The kitsune style was the deadly dirty part...

I know that if I focus on one aspect I can make it works and would be much better and sooner. I also got very good ideas for the second iteration and I hope not to make so many mistakes.

- Akari


Did you check to see if Dirty Trick Master is now PFS legal?
Also, take Dirty Fighting; gain Improv Dirty Trick and drop Combat Exper...

Slayer 6/ Fighter/6, with or without Bounty Hunter makes for an awesome Dirty Trick build.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It didn't used to be (Dirty Trick Master). Did it get changed?



Dirty Trick Master is not legal in PFS.

Grand Lodge

Havoq wrote:

Did you check to see if Dirty Trick Master is now PFS legal?

Also, take Dirty Fighting; gain Improv Dirty Trick and drop Combat Exper...

Slayer 6/ Fighter/6, with or without Bounty Hunter makes for an awesome Dirty Trick build.

As you already noted it's not legal. But I just wanted to add that it'll never be legal because it's way too good. It can permanently lock out most foes by dazing/nauseating them which will let them never have their standard action to remove the condition.


That, and Dirty Trick builds seemingly go against the ethos of pen and paper RPGs.

I created a dirty trick build that lead to enough GM against that I ended up re-rolling mid adventure path. And - that was before I had Dirty Trick Master. Before anyone goes with a similar build, they will want to be sure it's not going to be an issue. He's PFS, so table variation aside, no one can say a thing.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

So sounds like the whole build needs re-tuned:
Superior Shapeshifter
Dirty Trick Master
Unchained Monk Maneuver Master

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:

So sounds like the whole build needs re-tuned:

Superior Shapeshifter
Dirty Trick Master
Unchained Monk Maneuver Master

Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes in that one, even though I double checked the additional resources. Any way, I re-build it. I changed the feeling of the fluff a bit (he is no longer a martial artist but a witty duelist a la Kitsune style) and balanced the beginning so it would not be hard (at least not comparison with the first one). The fluff is still a trickster focus on dirty maneuvers and quick with his mind. Therefore I "divided" his growth in two parts, he first learnt how to be effective with the tricks and later with his mind (in and out of combat, thus the master mind investigator)

stats:

Kitsune (Keen kitsune)
traits (reactionary,- any other -)

Initial stats

STR: 8 (10-2)
DEX: 18 (16+2)
CON: 14
INT: 17 (15+2)
WIS: 12
CHA: 7


Build:

1 Swashbuckler Inspired blade
2 Fighter Lord Warden
3 Fighter
4 Slayer Bounty hunter
5 Slayer
6 Slayer
7 Investigator Master mind
8 Investigator
9 Investigator
10 Brawler Snakebite striker
11 Investigator
12 - any -

Feats:

Feats
1 - Fencing grace
2 - (fighter) Agile maneuver
3 - (Lord Warden) Expertise
3 - (Fighter) Improved dirty trick
3 - Kitsune style
5 - Kitsune trick
7 - Quick Dirty trick
9 - (Investigator inspiration) Underworld Inspiration or alchemy discovery (mutagen) or Effortless aid
9 - Greater Dirty trick
11 - Extra investigation (quick study)

From the optimized point of view is far for being optimized: I could have stuck with the slayer for extra sneak attack damage and conserve my BAB (3d6 + Accomplished Sneak attacker for an extra 1d6) and get some slayer's goodies while I'm there. On the other hand, the investigator added a very needed dose of Will saves, some minor buffs and a bit of social skills even with his low CHA.

Grand Lodge

With two levels of Lore Warden in your plan, I'd think you'd want one more for an extra +2 to your CMB.


Akari - #220489 wrote:
From the optimized point of view is far for being optimized: I could have stuck with the slayer for extra sneak attack damage and conserve my BAB (3d6 + Accomplished Sneak attacker for an extra 1d6) and get some slayer's goodies while I'm there. On the other hand, the investigator added a very needed dose of Will saves, some minor buffs and a bit of social skills even with his low CHA.

Clever Wordplay: Diplomacy - because it's hard to investigate when people hate you.

Pragmatic Activator: Because UMD on wands is good stuff... and UMDing a 2pp Wand of Honey Tongue gives you a lot towards being OK at diplomacy... Wand of Shield, Wand of Ant Haul, Wand of Mage Armor are all good items too...

Feel like just staying slayer with the above traits, though would be pretty OK and you could investigate nearly as well if you took some of the traits above. Slayer has pretty OK skills, decent skillpoints.. and the longer you stay in it the better your studied target gets. Spend some gold on saves and take a clear spindle ioun stone + slot it.

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