This is a very wordy post; and I'll do my best to sum it up as best as I can.
Now my brother runs this campaign that we all have dubbed "weeb quest." As you all can guess, it's a campaign that uses many anime tropes and themes to it...which is fine by us since we're all weebs (except Leonel...he's that guy of the group). The campaign is great and all; but the lore in it really bugs me. My brother tries to explain everything that the Inner Sea Word Guide doesn't explain about the timeline in Golarion's creation. We're not in any known land of Golarion...we're on a country that formed after a post apocalyptic war of the Gods; giving us the illusion that we're in his own original quest...but still part of the world.
The following information around here are the parts that bug me:
In this world with his lore, the world was supposedly created by these three deities. These aren't your regular deities either; these are greater deities. One of these beings are able to solo all of the normal deities on Golarion in his lore. These deities supposedly created the world, and even created a majority of the deities; before moving to the sidelines. The three Deities are Law, Order, and Chaos. After this, the world continues to play out like it does in the Inner Sea Timeline.
Now...these deities wouldn't irk me as much...obviously Pathfinder doesn't explain everything about their lore as there is a few secrets they want to keep hidden for the right time, so everything he made is just trying to fill in lore for his world. It's the things that they do that makes me not like it.
These deities embody the very ideals they are named after. Law is the pure embodiment of law, Chaos is the pure embodiment of Chaos and freedom, and Order is the balance between the two. These beings will do whatever it takes to ensure their ideology is enforced. This includes grabbing the (what are basically dubbed as lesser deities now) deities of Golarion in the world and forcing them into wars. Law wants everyone to be shackled to the Law, because she feels that through the law, people will be able to survive and thrive. No one breaks the rules, and no one steps out of line. However, she holds this to the strictest mandate. Those who fall outside of the mandate are to be culled immediately without pity or remorse. Chaos is the opposite spectrum; being that all beings are to live freely without conforming to rules or society. Those who try to establish any form of law are to be culled. Order believes that the two should have a balance between the two. Those who would seek to disrupt the balance (regardless of reason) are to culled; along with anyone close or associated with them.
There was supposedly two great wars in Golarion. One before the kingdoms were forged that we know in the Inner Sea Region. In this war, Chaos started a war with Law to show the superiority of his race known as the Kerricians. Because they were the creation of a greater deity, the gods had to plead with Law to intervene; knowing that intervening themselves would result in their deaths by a greater deity. Law then intervened with Chaos forces and a six day battle began. The battle ended when Order arrived and attempted to balance the forces of Law and Chaos...by genociding both armies and forcing the two into submission and back on the sidelines. Law and Chaos left along with Order, but left the world in ruin on both sides.
Eventually a second war broke out, and this time both greater deities forcibly summoned warriors from all over the planets of the universe, extraplanar beings, demigods and gods like and fought in a second war. Now in this war, no one knows who started it, but it happened. The war ended again with Order appearing and genociding both armies; and this time the entire planet along with it. Law's body was killed in the battle by Chaos, forcing her spirit into a plane until a proper vessel could be bred for her to inhabit. Chaos was sealed away by order, and Order fell into obscurity. And then to punish all the deities for their forced involvement severs their connection to the world of Golarion, requiring them to use a specific artifact to maintain control of their power on the world; in a very limited fashion (all they seem to do now is be able to grant clerics and divine casters their power...nothing else). Order then leaves this now completely destroyed world in ruins, leaving only a floating island for the humans to survive on.
So...do you think you can guys can offer input on a few questions I have below.
What do you think of the Greater Deities?
My opinion of the Greater deities is very low. Do you agree that the Greater Deities are of the evil alignments?
My brother in his lore believes that the Greater Deities are needed in the world. They supposedly maintain aspects of the world that the regular deities do not. Since this world still uses Golarion's lore, would the Greater Deities actually be needed; or can the normal deities do this themselves?
One of the other aspects on why the Greater Deities are needed are the fact they keep the other deities in check. According to him, this is because that the deities themselves have their own preferences and beliefs. They tolerate one another; and some are friends with each of them. However, they also have enemies. Although it seems foolish for the gods to fight one another's followers (since this would flood souls into that plane of existence's afterlife as they fall into the River of Souls, and fuel the ranks of the other deities when they arrive at Pharasma's boneyard), his logic is eventually tensions will rise and someone will do something to cause all hell to break loose. One God will attack, then that God or Goddess will rise to defend their followers; then another one might join the fray. Now without the Greater Deities, there is nothing to keep them in check. But something about that statement doesn't seem right. Rovagug seemed to be the only one who outright attacked the world; which then caused every other deity to rise up and try and try to stop him. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Order's purpose according to my brother is there to balance what Chaos and Law does. He according to my brother keeps the two deities under control. He's the only benevolent one of the three. I completely disagree. Do you disagree as well?
Now eventually, we are supposed to come to a point where we'll find this artifact that enables us to gain the power temporarily of a Greater Deity. It basically lets us do anything we want, unless we want to dispose of the Greater Deities, in which case we fight them. My opinion for this quest is in the end game we should destroy all three Greater Deities, or strip them of their powers. I believe that the Greater Deities are the root cause of alot of problems; and should be eliminated. Do you agree with this?
So THAT'S what happened to Golarion in the lead-up to the time of Starfinder . . . your mission, should you choose to accept it, will be to get rid of these &*(%Q#&*%&9-_) scourges of reality so that Golarion be returned to the Prime Material Plane. Should you fail in your mission, the Divine Secretary will disavow all knowledge of your actions. This message will self-destruct in 10 . . . 9 . . . 8 . . . .
It sounds to me like the greater deities are not beings in the usual sense of the word and are more like universal forces rather than individuals that make moral or immoral decisions. They are amoral, the greater god of law for example cannot act in a chaotic way it can only act in one way: strictly lawfully, and therefore doesn't actually make moral choices. Accusing them of being evil is like saying physics is evil because the 2nd law of thermodynamics causes everything to die. That's just my take on it. I would trust your brothers opinion on this since they are his creations.
That's what he said. The thing about them that irks me is they have literally stayed on the sidelines the whole time, and only when they decide to do anything; all they end up doing is destroying almost of the land.
They are beings in his lore; ones that can think and act. It's more proper to call them the first deities if anything. They also (unless I am mistaken) are the only ones who actively have went to war with each other on the material plane, and forced others into their wars.
It also to me ruins the positions of the normal deities, putting them down to mere secretaries if anything.
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That is indeed a big change in the metaphysics of Golarion, to have sentient embodiments of one of the Alignment axes.
That said, except for the few who know about them (which does include the PC party), everything is similar to the usual setting, with the gods still doing their usual business as if the Trinity and the threat it represents did not exist.
Which is basic adaptation to a lethal threat you can do nothing about.
That's what he said. The thing about them that irks me is they have literally stayed on the sidelines the whole time, and only when they decide to do anything; all they end up doing is destroying almost of the land.
Sounds a lot like Krynn to me.
He's the GM it's his world. I've always hated published game worlds.
What do you think of the Greater Deities?I find them extremely dis-interesting. I don't understand what they add to the lore (it seems like absolutely nothing, really).
Since this world still uses Golarion's lore, would the Greater Deities actually be needed; or can the normal deities do this themselves?Do what? What ever they're doing isn't necessary.
One of the other aspects on why the Greater Deities are needed are the fact they keep the other deities in check.This isn't needed for the rest. And "Chaos" really shouldn't be aligning with this. Good job on Rovagug by the way.
his logic is eventually tensions will rise and someone will do something to cause all hell to break loose.
[...]
Now without the Greater Deities, there is nothing to keep them in check.His logic is flawed since he assumes the gods and goddesses to be morons and he ignores canon lore. They already have a reason to not endlessly fight.
I would seriously walk away from the table if a DM insisted using this as lore - that's how much I really don't see the point of it. I'd rather have it be about "Red, Blue or Green", because the basic concept of those colors have more meaning to them than these "Greater Deities".
Would you happen to know what that reason is? That's something I have been trying to look for on the forums, but my google search has yet to find me anything.
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I see no reason why gods couldn't and wouldn't be morons.
Real mythologies have plenty of dieties that aren't exactly geniuses.
As noted here, the gods aren't a bunch of morons who needs caretakers to keep them in order. And there are also cases where these supposed caretakers would have failed at their job, if they where a thing.
Mortals often wonder why—if the deities have such great power—they don’t prevent or reverse large-scale disasters such as the opening of the Worldwound, or at least prevent bad things from happening to their followers. Indeed, many deities would intervene to prevent such things, but they are opposed by other deities who want these misfortunes and disasters to occur, and all recognize that a confrontation between beings of near-infinite power could destroy entire worlds and still end in a draw.Any deity who tries to directly intervene in the mortal world on a large scale becomes a target for rival powers, many of whom might temporarily ally to eliminate the troublemaking deity, and no god wants to push her enemies into an alliance. As much as Iomedae would like to heal the Worldwound, taking direct action would not only unite a dozen demon lords against her (including Lamashtu, a goddess in her own right), but also draw the ire of Gorum (who enjoys the ongoing war the demonic presence creates in the world) and Nethys (who is intrigued by the weakness between the planar barriers and the effects they have on magic). To prevent all-out war and unmitigated disaster, the deities have an informal arrangement that discourages them from grand acts in the mortal world, and have laws among themselves that forbid taking direct action against each other’s planar realms. It’s this very divine truce that makes mortal worshipers—and their proxy conflicts—so important.
However, even these laws are sometimes broken, such as when Desna invaded the Abyss to destroy the demon lord Aolar for possessing and corrupting her favored priest. Most of the demon lords united against Desna, and it was only with the help of other deities that the goddess left the Abyss unscathed.
Thanks! I knew he was overlooking something!