Can Wall of Fire extend beyond caster's sight?

[lowericon]

Here's the scenario:

A 10th-level caster is using Wall of Fire inside a small, cramped dungeon room. At his level, he can make a wall up to 200ft long. The room is only 35ft wide, but if he lines up the wall just right, it could theoretically extend into a very long hallway, reach its full 200ft potential, and effect a LOT more people. The caster, however, cannot see into that hallway because of his placement in the room. He can see the 35ft stretch across the room that would start this wall, but he can't see into the hallway where the other 265ft of it would spring up.

Does the spell extend into the hallway? To full length?
How does a constricted line of sight effect this spell?

[Jeraa]

A wall of fire is an Effect spell (it has Effect in its stats).

Quote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

If you don't have a clear line of effect from your position to down the hallway, you can't have the wall appear down the hallway. You can only make it appear in places you have a clear line of effect.

[Kayerloth]

Jeraa is right assuming the reason the caster can't see into the hallway is the solid walls of the room, door or other barrier and not lack of light from the room into the hall (or fog, mist, smoke etc.). Basically if it provides total cover it's a problem for line of effect. If it creates concealment then it isn't (Or at least my brain hasn't come up with a scenario in which those things aren't true).

[Snowlilly]

Jeraa wrote:

A wall of fire is an Effect spell (it has Effect in its stats).

Quote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

If you don't have a clear line of effect from your position to down the hallway, you can't have the wall appear down the hallway. You can only make it appear in places you have a clear line of effect.

You only need line of effect to one point in the area of effect, not the entire area of effect.

Wall of fire does not require a target, line of sight is not required for any part of the spell, e.g. the spell is usable while blind, in magical darkness, surrounded by fog, etc.

[Lorewalker]

Jeraa wrote:

A wall of fire is an Effect spell (it has Effect in its stats).

Quote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

If you don't have a clear line of effect from your position to down the hallway, you can't have the wall appear down the hallway. You can only make it appear in places you have a clear line of effect.

Having an effect is nearly meaningless in this context. Fog Cloud has an effect line too, but you only need to see the chosen point of origin not each square the cloud spreads too.

Remember, spells with a point of origin are defined beyond their origin, but you don't necessarily need to see beyond that point of origin for the effect to reach it.

Magic wrote:

"You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range."

So, having said that, Firewall has an effect but what its effect is is more important than having an effect line. It is an area spell.

Area Spell wrote:

"Area

Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell."

Every definition for each type of area spell includes a line like this... "In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point."

For area spells, you almost always count line of effect from the point of origin and not from the sight of the caster.

[Kayerloth]

And Snowlilly is correctly pointing out the confusing part of the rules, but I believe you must have both clear line of effect to the spaces in which the effect is placed and the point of origin as well. Nothing about saying you need the line of effect to the target/point of origin rules out that you also need one to each space the effect appears. Both must be true. The issue really springs out when you start talking about spells such as Wail of the Banshee which has a point of origin and also targets individual creatures some of which might be around the corner or in this case down the hall if, for example, you placed the Wail's point of origin in the doorway of your room. I have no trouble seeing how one couldn't place the Wall of Fire down the hall because you couldn't see it. Gets a lot trickier saying a creature, known to exist but out of sight beyond the doorway isn't effected by a sonic attack emanating from the door the caster can clearly see but is in the hallway where the caster can not see. The difference is the fact the Wail is a spread whereas Wall of Fire is not. The magic effect the caster needs to control and hence have line of effect to with the Wail is only at the point of origin the rest just happens. This is not true of the Wall of Fire. But there is significant variance in how GM's handle this. I'd personally have no issue with either ruling ... be consistent in your own game/world.

[Jeraa]

Nothing says you only need line of effect to a single location. Unless that location is designated as the origin of the spell, like for all area spells.

Quote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

Note that there are three separate things there (though 1 and 3 effectively say the same thing).

1) Line of effect to the target you cast the spell on.
2) Line of effect to any space you wish to create an effect.
3) Line of effect to the point of origin of the spell.

Wall of fire doesn't have a point of origin, so #1 and #3 are disregarded. That leaves #2 - line of effect to any space the spell occupies.

To create a wall of fire or similar effect, you must have a line of effect to the chosen area. If you don't have line of effect to that space, you can't create the wall there.

[Lorewalker]

Jeraa wrote:

Nothing says you only need line of effect to a single location. Unless that location is designated as the origin of the spell, like for all area spells.

Quote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

Note that there are three separate things there (though 1 and 3 effectively say the same thing).

1) Line of effect to the target you cast the spell on.
2) Line of effect to any space you wish to create an effect.
3) Line of effect to the point of origin of the spell.

Wall of fire doesn't have a point of origin, so #1 and #3 are disregarded. That leaves #2 - line of effect to any space the spell occupies.

To create a wall of fire or similar effect, you must have a line of effect to the chosen area. If you don't have line of effect to that space, you can't create the wall there.

Wall of Fire does have a point of origin. All area spells do.

Area Spell wrote:

"Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects."

And line of effect is measure from the point of origin. The point of origin is sometimes one of the cross sections of the caster's square like in the case of Lightning Bolt, but it is not in this case.

[Jeraa]

Quote:

You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.

Wall of fire is not an Area spell, it is an Effect spell. You'll note that the description of Effect spells include some spells with an area as well (like fog clouds). Not all spells that affect an area are Area spells, just like not everything that causes instant death is a Death effect.

As for aiming Effect spells:

Quote:

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.

And what is required to designate the location? Line of effect.

Quote:

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

In order to designate a specific location as the location of a wall of fire you must have line of effect to each location.

[Lorewalker]

Jeraa wrote:

Quote:

You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.

Wall of fire is not an Area spell, it is an Effect spell. You

ll note that the description of Effect spells include some spells with an area as well (like fog clouds).

As for aiming Effect spells:

Quote:

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.

And what is required to designate the location? Line of effect.

Quote:

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

In order to designate a specific location as the location of a wall of fire you must have line of effect to each location.

It IS an area spell.

Magic : Effect wrote:

"Area

Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below."

And defined below...

Magic : Effect : Area wrote:

"Other

A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description."

Wall of fire has a unique area defined in its description.

Also defined below...

Magic : Effect : Area wrote:

"Burst, Emanation, or Spread

Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point."

Fog Cloud is an area spell. As it is a spread.

And, again, all area spells have a point of origin.

[Lorewalker]

You are correct that you need a line of effect... but you are wrong to think that the line of effect is measured from the caster. It is measured from the point of origin.

[Kayerloth]

In this case I may have spotted my own issue.

CRB, Magic wrote:

You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.

That's from the section on spreads, which Wail is (and Wall is not) even if the rest gets muddled.

[Lorewalker]

Kayerloth wrote:

In this case I may have spotted my own issue.

CRB, Magic wrote:

You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.

That's from the section on spreads, which Wail is (and Wall is not) even if the rest gets muddled.

Yah, spreads are special. They even turn corners.

The entry you really want for the full description is this...

MAGIC : AREA : CREATURE wrote:

"Creatures

A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst, a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape.

Many spells affect “living creatures,” which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell's area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected."

And it being a spread means that it does not need line of effect from its point of origin, as it can go around corners. Though doing so does have a cost in area, just as movement does.

[Kayerloth]

Yeah the last time I thought about this extensively my conclusion was more that Emanations really ought to be broken off from the list of "Burst, Emanation, or Spread" because Emanations have to do with the duration of the magic whereas Burst and Spread have to do with how the magic behaves i.e. I can imagine Emanations as either Spread or Burst and right now they're aren't any Emanations with spread behavior. They are all bursts in terms of how you determine what gets effected. But that is a digression off topic.

[lowericon]

Wow, ok. First of all, thanks to everyone for weighing in. The answer has proven to be a lot more complicated than I would have thought and I appreciate all the thought and research you've put into helping me. Thank you.

Secondly, I think I've arrived at a satisfactory answer. It requires a "Point of Origin" that isn't actually a "point" in the strictest sense, but I believe that's possible. The entry for Line of Effect says:

Quote:

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

Notice that bursts have a "center point" and cones have a "starting point", but with a cylinder its "origin" is described as its "circle", meaning not just one "point" in the strict mathematical sense. An emanations "origin" is described as "point of origin", which is about as vague as can be - but if a cylinder spell's "point of origin" can be a greater area than a single point, then an emanation's can too.

Here's the rest of my thinking process:

1. Wall of Fire is an Emanation spell. It sends waves of heat that damage people within 20ft of one side of it. That's not an Area covered by the spell itself (the width of the wall doesn't even occupy an entire square), that's heat Emanating from the wall.

2. All Emanations emanate from a Point of Origin.

3. The Point of Origin for WoF's Emanation is the entire wall, not just one point. This is possible because of the interpretation above, and is supported by the following:

- The Emanation effects creatures 20ft from the wall. If it only emanated from a single point, the Wall wouldn't have this Emanation beyond 20ft in length, but it does.

- the wall itself doesn't start in one point and then grow outward like a fence being built one post at a time - the entire wall appears at once. The first sentence in the spell description:

Quote:

An immobile, blazing curtain of shimmering violet fire springs into existence.

If the wall started in one point and then grew outward in a straight line, I'd call that movement. It's also probably the sort of thing you'd get a Ref save for, but there's no saving throw for Wall of Fire. "Springs into existence" is, in my interpretation, the entire wall appearing at once. Ergo, the entire wall is the Point of Origin.

4. If the entire wall is considered the Point of Origin, then you need Line of Effect to the entire wall. Lorewalker quoted the following a couple times, highlighting the 2nd half of the 1st sentence (which definitely applies, and makes sense), but the sentence right after it is what fully convinced me:

Lorewalker wrote:

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on [i]or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.[i] You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

5. If the "Point" of Origin is the entire wall, then the caster would need to have Line of Effect to every point and square along the length of the wall they want to make.

CONCLUSION:
The caster in my scenario does not have Line of Effect down into the hallway. His vision is blocked by a solid wall. So, the spell cannot extend down into the hallway.

[Gisher]

@Lorewalker

Looking at Wall of Fire, I don't see the Area descriptor. It has the Effect descriptor instead. I don't follow your argument that it is an Area spell.

[Snowlilly]

Technically Wall of Fire is not an AoE.

Wall of Fire does have language allowing the wall to extend to a designated area. Line of effect from the caster is not required as long a continuous line can be drawn along the designated path.