I have a new character for Shattered Star. I am using Brewer's Guide to Reach Clerics, and I want to base it on a Cleric(Evangelist) of Desna.
I have a 15 point buy, and I chose (1st level):
Race is: Half-Orc (City-Raised, Sacred Tattoo).
Stats are: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 13+2, Cha 13
Traits are: Campaign(Exchange Agent): Nidal, Varisian and Equipment(Prehensile Whip): Survival.
Feat is: Combat Reflexes.
Domain is: Travel
Being MAD is difficult with the 15 point buy, but I am game to try.
However, I am not sure how to proceed. I think I will skip Power Attack, as I don't have the strength to really take advantage of it. But what should my 3rd level feat be? I am leaning to Lingering Performance to let me really use my sermonic performance. [Note: we don't rocket tag, and 5+ round fights happen often.]
Also, which stat should I bump first? Strength for attack/damage and carrying capacity [currently medium load]? Wisdom for landing spells? Charisma for channels and skills? Or one of the others?
At only 1 skill per level (favored class bonus is HP), I chose Sense Motive as my 1st level skill. I think Survival will be 2nd level. Suggestions on skills that will help the character viability or provide good flavor are welcome.
I like the concept of the reach cleric, and I want to later roleplay up the whip using. If it fits the theme, I might get some whip feats to use it for more than bypassing the occasional hurdle. I also need advice on how to make the GM give me AoO since that relies on others, not myself. I have a Longspear as my primary weapon, but I also have a Spiked Gauntlet [for threatening adjacent], a Dagger [for grappled & swallowed], Sling [for ranged], and a Whip [for style].
Suggestions anyone?
/cevah
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If you are Evangelist and a caster, you are using at least two rounds before you wade into melee. Don't bother spreading yourself too thin, especially with Desna.
Desna looooooves Dex/Cha clerics and Evangelist needs Cha.
With 15 points and the Half-Orc +2 I'd be a good guy buffer at first - STR: 11 DEX: 12 CON: 12 INT: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 14 - It's a Desna thing, look at her Deific Obediences for example. You're a lover more than a fighter.
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I have a lot of exp. with 15 point buy. That's what I make my home game run with. It drives my players insane.
My best suggestion for you. Your trying to do to much. You need to pick a focus casting, or combat.
Casting ability scores.
Str 10 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 17 Cha 14
Feat: Lingering Performance
Combat ability scores.
Str 17 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 12
Feat: Lingering Performance
With a 15 point buy you can't really afford all the stats you want. You must pick what you want to be good at. Then make the choice of what you can give up.
If you are Evangelist and a caster, you are using at least two rounds before you wade into melee. Don't bother spreading yourself too thin, especially with Desna.
Desna looooooves Dex/Cha clerics and Evangelist needs Cha.
With 15 points and the Half-Orc +2 I'd be a good guy buffer at first - STR: 11 DEX: 12 CON: 12 INT: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 14 - It's a Desna thing, look at her Deific Obediences for example. You're a lover more than a fighter.
You mention "Deific Obediences". I am using the archetype, not the prestige class. I am 1st, not 7th level.
Do you have suggestions for the archetype version?
/cevah
I have a lot of exp. with 15 point buy. That's what I make my home game run with. It drives my players insane.
My best suggestion for you. Your trying to do to much. You need to pick a focus casting, or combat.
Casting ability scores.
Str 10 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 17 Cha 14
Feat: Lingering PerformanceCombat ability scores.
Str 17 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 12
Feat: Lingering PerformanceWith a 15 point buy you can't really afford all the stats you want. You must pick what you want to be good at. Then make the choice of what you can give up.
I know I have a MAD situation. Do you think that being a reach cleric(evangelist) is too much just by itself?
Also, stats are already set. The question is where to go from this point.
/cevah
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I know I have a MAD situation. Do you think that being a reach cleric(evangelist) is too much just by itself?
You can do it from a stand point of making the character work. I can offer suggestions. However with out moving ability scores. This characters effectiveness ends at 5th or 6th level. If your stats are set. You will need to talk to your GM about making a new character or making changes to this one.
If I was going to build this character. This is how I would do it. Understand however their are flaws. However with 15 point buy's flaws are part of what make the character. The other thing to think of skill ranks are better then ability modifier. If your taking something because you want to be good at it. Ability scores will make you very good at lower levels. Skill ranks make you good at things even after you get past level 5. Their are ways to make skills better. Their is no good way to increase the amount of skill ranks you get per level.
First round buffing not often is their a second option for this type of character.
Second round is when this type of character should enter combat.
Human
Cleric (Evangelist)
Shelyn: Domain: Protection: Defense Subdomain
Str 17
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 7
Traits: Exchange Agent, and Intense Artist
Feat's
H: Improved Initiative
1: Lingering Performance
3: Phalanx Formation
5: Combat Reflexes
7: Power Attack
9: Toughness
11: Discordant Voice
13: Improved Critical Glave
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If you are Evangelist and a caster, you are using at least two rounds before you wade into melee. Don't bother spreading yourself too thin, especially with Desna.
Desna looooooves Dex/Cha clerics and Evangelist needs Cha.
With 15 points and the Half-Orc +2 I'd be a good guy buffer at first - STR: 11 DEX: 12 CON: 12 INT: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 14 - It's a Desna thing, look at her Deific Obediences for example. You're a lover more than a fighter.
You mention "Deific Obediences". I am using the archetype, not the prestige class. I am 1st, not 7th level.
Do you have suggestions for the archetype version?
/cevah
I meant the Deific Obedience feat. For Desna it is both extremely easy and sufficiently powerful.
I know I have a MAD situation. Do you think that being a reach cleric(evangelist) is too much just by itself?You can do it from a stand point of making the character work. I can offer suggestions. However with out moving ability scores. This characters effectiveness ends at 5th or 6th level. If your stats are set. You will need to talk to your GM about making a new character or making changes to this one.
While I might be able to convince the GM to an attribute score change, I would rather go with what I have. We do not optimize heavily, nor do we "rocket tag" any combat. This is also a large party [7 players] so a character that contributes to combat without doing large DPS is OK.
If I was going to build this character. This is how I would do it. Understand however their are flaws. However with 15 point buy's flaws are part of what make the character. The other thing to think of skill ranks are better then ability modifier. If your taking something because you want to be good at it. Ability scores will make you very good at lower levels. Skill ranks make you good at things even after you get past level 5. Their are ways to make skills better. Their is no good way to increase the amount of skill ranks you get per level.
Why do you rate skills over stats? How will 1 more point per level help this character? Should I do FCB as skill rather than HP?
First round buffing not often is their a second option for this type of character.
Second round is when this type of character should enter combat.
The guide already indicated this. Cast (or inspire for me) on my turn, and AoO on other's turns for attacking. On my turn, I also move into the area to set up AoOs.
Human
Cleric (Evangelist)
Shelyn: Domain: Protection: Defense Subdomain
Str 17
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 7
Traits: Exchange Agent, and Intense Artist
Feat's
H: Improved Initiative
1: Lingering Performance
3: Phalanx Formation
5: Combat Reflexes
7: Power Attack
9: Toughness
11: Discordant Voice
13: Improved Critical Glave
While this domain does provide much better AC and saves, I went with what I did for the speed boost.
The trait Intense Artist makes perform a class skill, but so does Evangelist. It also gives +1 to two performs. This only helps out the Counterspell sermonic performance. It has no relevance to any other class feature I can see.
I do like Phalanx Formation and Discordant Voice. Should I get Lingering Performance before Phalanx Formation or the other way around?
I don't think I will do Improved Initiative, Power Attack, or Improved Critical Glave. I don't see acting early with such a large party is all that great. Sure, getting a buff on early can help out, but I would be competing with others who also have the feat with better Dex. Doing more damage with PA is also not so needed with a large party. As to the last, I am not proficient with it so I would have to spen a feat just to get it. [That is why I have the longspear -- simple weapon.]
/cevah
Iate to the party but I wanna gety piece In...
No problem. The more the better.
As a follower of Desna you have the best support set up in the game (at least based on positive channel) because of the luck variant channel. If you put effort into it, you can at later levels spell/domain buff, channel buff, and bardic style buff all in a single round. Convince your fellow players to take fates favored with you and laugh at your foes as you make your friends gods on a battlefield.
I think that might be adding another thing to the list of things my character wants to do. I already have enough just being a reach cleric evangelist. Nice buff, but I don't think it will be that needed.
Don't go combat reflexes though as you don't need it and for a 15 pt buy it truly is MAD. Instead I'd advise a 14,12,12,7,14,14 array with racial to either wisdom or charisma depending on your style. The key feats are lingering performance, selective channel, quick channel, improved initiative and maybe extra channel. The rest don't matter as your already set then. Be sure to replace darkvision with skilled so that you keep your two skill points, it's a good trade for the hit points and little extra saves.
Combat Reflexes is needed for an AoO build. I am already low on Dex per the guide. Still, I expect to get good use from it.
The channel feats are predicated on using channel during combat. Without the variant channeling, I don't see this to be happening, so they won't be needed.
I chose Half-Orc just to get darkvision, so I don't think I will trade it out. :-)
/cevah
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Lingering Performance: lets you play lose with how many rounds of performance you have. Much more important at lower level. And if you happen to go down. Keeps it up for two more rounds.
Phalanx Formation: Requires BAB 1 that you don't get until level 2. Why just as important. The other members of the group. Can at lower levels cover your missing more often. At higher levels is where its more important to contribute to damage done. You just need to make sure you have this before taking combat reflexes.
Protection domain: gives +1 resistance +1 for 5 levels. Freeing up the cloak slot for a diffident cloak. I recommend you pick up a cloak of displacement lesser around level 8 or 9. In most cases movement is king. However your a second line fighter. Moving faster then your front line dose you harm. I have more then a few characters that can but don't wear armor that will make them move slower. My reach oracle is not one of them. You need to also look at the domain spells. Shield grants you 4 extra points of AC. With a few 3-4 pearls of power I. You can have it going for every combat. Barkskin at higher levels will last all day and give you extra AC.
When you know your about to enter combat
Level 1 Shield 4 Barkskin 2 Shield of Faith 2 = +8 to your AC.
Studded Leather 3 Dex Mod 2 = Base AC 15 +8 = 23
Level 10 Shield 4 Barkskin 3 Shield of Faith 3 = + 10 to your AC.
Mithral Breast Plate +2
Armor 8 Dex Mod 2 = AC 20 +10 = 30
Skills: 1 skill ranks per level vs. my build at 3 skill ranks per level. Why yes I have less in the same skill. I have ranks in other skills giving me options (diplomacy), or opportunity (perception). To engage npc in whys the other character can't. Just by not having the skill ranks to have other skills.
Level 5
Your build
Perform rank 5 class skill 3 cha mod 1 = 9
My build
Diplomacy rank 5 class skill 3 cha mod -2 = 6
Perception rank 5 wis mod 2 = 7
Perform rank 5 class skill 3 cha mod -2 trait 1 = 7
Level 10
Your build
Perform rank 10 class skill 3 cha mod 1 = 14
My build
Diplomacy rank 10 class skill 3 cha mod -2 = 11
Perception rank 10 wis mod 2 = 12
Perform rank 10 class skill cha mod -2 trait 1 = 12
Protection domain: gives +1 resistance +1 for 5 levels. Freeing up the cloak slot for a diffident cloak. I recommend you pick up a cloak of displacement lesser around level 8 or 9.
As it is a home game, custom items are allowed, so this is less of an issue.
In most cases movement is king. However your a second line fighter. Moving faster then your front line dose you harm. I have more then a few characters that can but don't wear armor that will make them move slower. My reach oracle is not one of them.
While I move at 40', I am carrying sufficient to encumber me to back down to 30'. I am not faster, but just keeping up. Without a strength boost, not even mithril armor will improve this. I plan to get a heavyload belt initially, as this will also remove the armor check penalties from medium encumbrance.
You need to also look at the domain spells. Shield grants you 4 extra points of AC. With a few 3-4 pearls of power I. You can have it going for every combat. Barkskin at higher levels will last all day and give you extra AC.
When you know your about to enter combat
Level 1 Shield 4 Barkskin 2 Shield of Faith 2 = +8 to your AC.
Studded Leather 3 Dex Mod 2 = Base AC 15 +8 = 23
Barkskin is spell level 2, so not available until level 3. The others are one minute per level, so not long lasting.
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Skills: 1 skill ranks per level vs. my build at 3 skill ranks per level. Why yes I have less in the same skill. I have ranks in other skills giving me options (diplomacy), or opportunity (perception). To engage npc in whys the other character can't. Just by not having the skill ranks to have other skills.
I think you missed the part in my post above that Perform only affects the counterspell aspect. Since counters have not been much in evidence for years, I don't think I need to worry about that. I will invest a point, but not likely more.
With a large party, it is likely that someone else will be the face. And since my last character (Cevah!) is a diplomancer, I did not want to repeat. I did put a point into sense motive, and may put more in.
With Perception not being a class skill, it won't be easy getting it to good levels. Still, I may invest some here later.
/cevah
I really like your build, buy and concept.
Thanks. :-)
My suggestions: getting multiple AoOp per round is going to be a challenge in a large party. I would swap Combat reflexes for Power Attack. Rather than giving yourself the chance to make a number of low damage strikes, you'll make a single, (relatively) high value AoOp per round. Yes PA gives you a negative to hit, but with guaranteed Inspired Courage and a decent chance of Divine Favour being up, you should be mitigating your lost to-hit. PA also works better with your extended combats where in rounds 3-5 you are looking to actively hit with your spear rather than just make AoOp.
With Phalanx Fighting, I may get more chances. I have yet to look into getting enlarged, as that will increase reach, but at an AC penalty.
My last character had issues connecting, so I am shy of doing stuff that makes it harder to hit.
Divine Favor is definitely scheduled for level 2 (level 1 is cure spells only due to no channel yet). Power Attack is worth it when you have a decent chance of hitting. I don't think I am in that bucket, although I may get there later. My first round will be inspire and maybe move. My second round for Divine Favor and move.
Stats look fine, but with only light armour and given the issues trying to make multiple AoOp, I'd drop the Dex in favour of some extra Int for Skills or a bump to your Wis. The extra skills will add a lot to playing the character, the Wis for extra/better spells is also an obvious win. On stat increases I would increase Str first, as Clerics tend to start out more melee heavy and as their spell casting grows, move more that way.
I would have to drop a lot of Dex to get just one more skill point.
While higher DCs for spell saves are great, I plan to be more a buffer than a debuffer. DCs are not an issue then. I need Wis to cast, but can get by will less since I am not worried about saving throws.
I think you've done the right thing going Cha 13 and then looking at some Channelling Feats. Sure Channel doesn't scale that well in terms of its output, but with such a large party I think it is a solid option. Especially seeing as you can't spontaneous Cures with that archetype. There's also some fantastic mid-late game action economy with Inspire +Quick Chanel +spells +AoOp.
I am not looking at channel feats at this time. I might go for Extra Channel, but that depends on how much it is needed.
/cevah
My 2cp:
- You are a caster, drop anything melee related, especially with that STR. Past level 6 you are useless compared to a fighter (and the mobs you can expect). Before level 6 you can fight, but don't expect much effect.
- As a caster, you need your casting stat, everything else is secondary, except CON.
- DEX is good for initiative and the reflex save, AC does not matter as much. Or I should say, it matters only to medium levels. Later on you can expect mobs to hit you, no matter what, and we leave the BAB vs AC arena and move into damage vs healing.
- Channel is nice at low levels and goes out of use around level 11. You will use it past that point (for topping up after battle), but probably rue all feats invested into the thing. It remains useful, if you are allowed variant channeling, for the side effect.
- If you are determined to do melee and acquire power attack, make sure you have STR 18 or better. This can be done with a STR buff or item, so you don't have to commit too much into that stat.
- Maybe you should consider getting Reach Spell, depending on how exacting your DM is with touch spells (buffs) and range *wink*. It is the most-used of my meta feats on my healer/buffer - getting a rod or two with it would be OK too.
Last night's session worked well, even if my character nearly died. I even got off a number of AoOs. One of my party went negative, got healed a bit, and played dead. The enemy stooped down to drag that character and I got an AoO. Then they dragged the character away. Another AoO. I hit the first time, missed the second. The next round, the "dead" character, attacked from prone (& fatigue due to rage) and hit the enemy, taking it down. The character then stood up, out of range on anyone, and later rejoined the fight. 2nd level fun times.
For the feat Phalanx Fighting, it looks like our house rules are not doing soft cover, thus making the feet effectively free to all. Looks like Lingering Performance will be my 3rd level feat.
/cevah