| Pantastic |
I'm starting a home brew campaign, and we start play Dec 3. I'm looking for all the help I can get to make sure I don't unnecessarily hamper my character ... and the party!
So far the DM has agreed to let me start with:
Level 4 Drow with levels in Sorcerer (x2), Oracle, and Mystic Theurge (we all start at level 4). My plan is to take the next 9 levels in Mystic Theurge, then the remaining 7 levels in Sorcerer. I expect to be Neutral Good alignment. I think he will be all talk and spells, and completely non-physical (for violence, anyways). We expect to have a Bard and a Cleric, so buffing/healing will be an emergency task for me, not main duty. I might play this guy as a social-setting genius (high CHA, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and even control spells like Charm, etc), but I could also see him as a complete offensive spell-casting battle mage ... still haven't decided yet.
For traits, I'm going to ask for Magical Knack (+2 caster level to Oracle), and I was looking at possibly Reactionary (+2 Initiative, on top of my current +6), or possibly Strength of Sun (especially if I go Lore Oracle with the Sidestep mystery). If Magical Knack is not allowed, I'll probably take Desperate Focus (+2 concentration checks) instead.
Feats: I get 3 to start, and I'll have 11 at level 20. I've never played a magic-user in Pathfinder, so what are the feats I absolutely MUST take, and the ones I should try to get?
Finally, the big ones: my bloodline and mystery. Because of Mystic Theurge, I'll be level 14 before I get my second bloodline power and my first bloodline spell ... and my Oracle's mystery will never progress beyond first level. Because of that, I'm looking for experienced advice on both bloodline and mystery.
I'm still getting to know this guy; I'll post more as I learn it. Advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!
| Baval |
Mystic Theurge requires you to be able to cast spells from both sources of at least second level, while you can cast them from neither. Your choice of classes means you should not be able to theurge till at least level 9. If your DM allowed you to ignore the prereqs, he should be aware he basically let you Gestalt.
He should also be aware that allowing you to gestalt those two classes has basically made you the absolute strongest character in the party.
| avr |
If you're looking at social spell use the Psychic bloodline is the one you want. No verbal or somatic components makes the use of the Cunning Caster feat much easier. This also takes 2 of your starting feats - Deceitful and Cunning Caster. The other would probably be Spell Focus (Enchantment).
If you're going to let social skills handle that part then you're going to need to define what exactly you're focusing on. Blasting, battlefield control, buffing, summoning,.. these have different feats, mysteries and bloodlines as a focus.
| Baval |
I mentioned it, other than to point out in case you didnt realize, was for two reasons:
1.) You are so powerful with this build it would be difficult for you to mess it up. Dont optimize too much.
2.) If youre taking advantage of a relatively new DM who approved this character without knowing the implications, dont. That isnt fun for anyone involved.
| MageHunter |
There's plenty of threads debating how overpowered MT's actually are. That's probably the place for it. But let's have some fun now!
First check out Angry Wiggle's MT Guide here!
Other than that... I guess it is hard to mess up. You are still behind in spell levels and caster level which means buff spells and other things that aren't too level dependent are better. Even if you have Magical Knack. Though I'd definitely pick up Spell Focus and more like that and you could remain competitive.
The premise of the Treantmonk God style is that it's fun for everyone. It actually addresses earlier concerns. Basically make the party better. Don't do their job for them. If you mega-buff the fighter everyone has fun! Plus with all your spells you can finally pick up all those flavorful utility spells you couldn't otherwise afford.
TL;DR instead of replacing party members just make them better. Then everyone has fun. (That's if you want to do the God Style)
The feat Secret Signs helps to disguise spells.
Cory Stafford 29
|
Mystic Theurge requires you to be able to cast spells from both sources of at least second level, while you can cast them from neither. Your choice of classes means you should not be able to theurge till at least level 9. If your DM allowed you to ignore the prereqs, he should be aware he basically let you Gestalt.
He should also be aware that allowing you to gestalt those two classes has basically made you the absolute strongest character in the party.
There was a loophole for a while that let racial spell like abilities count(drow and tiefling get darkness-a 2nd level arcane spell. Aasimar get daylight) as casting arcane spells of x level for the purpose of qualifying for prestige classes, but Paizo changed their minds about it and shut it down. It's a shame because it wasn't broken for the mystic theurge. In fact, it's the only way to make it not so weak as to be useless. As long as it's not for PFS, and his GM agrees, it should be okay.
If you want to be a blaster, get the fire mystery for oracle and crossblooded archetype for the sorcerer (orc and red/gold dragon bloodlines). Just try to pump your cha as high as possible and get spell focus:evocation. Otherwise, getting control and save or suck type spells like pit spells, slow, glitterdust, solid fog, dazing are affect spells, etc.
| Pantastic |
Again: Mystic Theurge with early entry is gonna happen in this game. Now, back to the subject at hand:
One thing I'm wrestling with: should I focus on a particular set of spells, or should I go for the "jack of all trades" approach? This will factor in for feats, etc (why use a feat for +1 DC to illusions, of I'm only going to have 1 or 2 illusion spells?). Personally, I think my inclination is more towards the "jack of all trades" approach .... but again: I have no experience being a caster in Pathfinder. In other RPG systems, I've found specialization highly beneficial. What are your thoughts, people who have experience?
Also, I've also never been the party "face" before. We will have a bard (who I'm assuming will also have high CHA), so maybe he will be the face. But if it is me, will insanely high social skills be enough, or do I also need to invest heavily in charm and compulsion type spells?
@Magehunter - thanks for the advice, and the guide ... I somehow had missed it in my searching.
Cory Stafford 29
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Generally, Pathfinder (really all d20 systems) reward specialization more than a jack of all trades approach. You never want to be too narrowly focused, though, because then you end up playing a fire blaster fighting things immune to fire, or an illusionist or enchanter that has to face oozes, constructs, and undead. The only times when being a jack of all trades is desirable is when you don't know what the party composition will be (pick up games of PFS), or when you have no clue what situations you will be facing. As far as being a party face, you really just need a good diplomacy bonus, unless you want to be a little more underhanded, then you need bluff. Intimidate and sense motive can also be handy there, but not completely necessary if you can't afford the skill ranks for them.
| avr |
What are you going to use feats for, if not some form of specialisation? Personally I find the feats which are useful to any character to some degree (Toughness, Improved Initiative etc.) to be terribly boring. Spell Focus is barely a notch above that but it does at least declare that you are going to use illusions (or whatever) more often and that you might call yourself an illusionist (or whatever)..
Social skills let you do the possible. Charm Person and so on may let you do the impossible, though not reliably. Some other compulsions are obviously battle spells, e.g. Command or even Murderous Command.
| Dastis |
May I suggest using an emphereal bloodline sorrcer+cleric for a MUCH wider spell list. As double spontaneous caster you will not have the spell selection to do anything near jack of all trades. Sorcerer as a class does best focusing on a single tactic and making it a godly power that you spam. For feats I recommend the disguised spellcasting feats from inner sea intrigue. With them you can still blast in public. Heck you can include yourself in the blast area to gain a bonus on the subsequent bluff check. "Poor Albert. Thank heavens I had protection from energy on". If you use it after failing a bluff check its as good as a reroll in most cases. For blasting advice google SorcererNukeGuideforFPS. For general sorcerer stuff try Aquickguidetopathfindersorcerers. That last one has a very good list of sorcerer spells organized by quality and use. If you are intent on going enchanter remember that Save DC is your new god. Crossblood(fey,arcane). Arcane bloodline is the best in general. Take a familiar for your lv1 option. Lv7 feat is improved familiar. Imp, caligraphy worm, and faerie dragon are my favorites. Your going to have almost no skill points so max perception+spellcraft. Everything else you want just put a single point into for the +3 bonus. Might consider getting +2 int headband to give ranks in UMD for familiar. Wands are your friends. Spell perfection is the must have feat. Quicken spell, empowered spell, intensified spell, focused spell, and persistent spell are typically the best prerequisite feats. Focused spell is great after you decide what your favorite school is. Spell Penetration is needed by or at Lv11 if you want to keep hitting non humans with spells.
Here's a general MT guide
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rq94&page=1?Blurring-the-Lines-for-Arcanes -and-Divines-A
Ask about anything I said that doesn't make sense. Its late but I'm posting anyway
| Pantastic |
I have to wrap up my character prep tomorrow, so thank you all for helping me get this far. I went and read all of the guides mentioned, and learned a lot in the process.
I hear you on the spontaneous vs prepared. Prepared gets access to higher levels sooner, and has more flexibility over all. Spontaneous gets more spells per day, and greater flexibility in the moment. A mix of both (for a Mystic Theurge) would probably be ideal, and I think that with my great stats I could pull off a Sorcerer / Cleric even with the multiple attribute dependency. Except ... it goes against the vision I have developed for this character:
My DM is going to let me take "Blind" as my curse (we home-brewed it, based off "Clouded Vision"). I won't be able to read or discern colors, but will have some blind sense and blind sight instead. I think we've balanced it fairly well, but I'll spare the details for brevity's sake. That kind of locks me into Oracle. Also, I can't see reading a Wizard's spellbook as a blind Oracle (besides, if I did go one prepared / one spontaneous class, I'd want the spontaneous one, Sorcerer, to be my main class). I understand this might not be "optimized," but I'll still be able to cast about 50 spells per day when I'm level 10, including 7 spells of 4th level ... I believe I'll be ok. Still, spell selection will be of the utmost importance.
Questions on traits and revelations:
Sarenrae, being one of the many deitys I revere as an Oracle, may choose to grant me the "Strength of Sun" (trait; +1 CHA checks during the day). I'm not a big fan of conditional, but probably 75% of our adventures will occur "during the day." Oddly enough, I would combine it with the Lunar mystery to get the Prophetic Armor revelation (use CHA instead of DEX for AC and Reflex). I only get 1 revelation, so is this a good use of it? My CHA will always be my best stat, and that shores up my Reflex save, permanently. I'm assuming the +1 during the day will also apply to most spellcasting checks (at least the CHA-based ones)?
Another option for my single revelation is "Temporal Celerity" (Time mystery; roll twice for Initiative and choose. At level 7, always act in surprise rounds. At level 11, roll three times. If I do that, Strength of Sun loses some appeal. If I don't take Temporal Celerity, my Initiative modifier will be +8, or +12 if I get the feat Improved Initiative.
Tough choices .... multiple Initiative rolls, or amazing Reflex and AC?
I haven't decided on bloodline yet, but I'm leaning towards Arcana because I don't see anything better.
Thanks again!
| avr |
Both those revelations are good, as would be taking dual-cursed and getting the Misfortune revelation. They won't advance with level though - you're just taking one oracle level and mystic theurge advances casting only. You don't get the bonus spells either.
I advise against Arcane bloodline though. A familiar stuck with the 2nd level bonuses isn't much, a bonded object will only cast a first level spell known ever, and with delayed casting you're not likely to get a lot of use out of metamagic.
If you're after a different bloodline which boosts mind-affecting spells, Fey is good for the +2 DC to compulsion spells, or there are several which expand the types of targets you can use them on - Undead, Serpentine, to a lesser extent Verdant or Impossible.
The Destined bloodline, Martyred or Wildblooded Karmic give minor boosts which will continue to be useful without advancement.
If you do go prepared & spontaneous Wildblooded Empyreal Sorcerer/Cleric is dependent on wisdom only.