Half-Orc with Orc Atavism vs. Human with Racial Heritage: Half-Orc?

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

Okay, so the addition of the Orc Atavism Alternate Racial Trait has me a bit confused now with Racial Heritage.

First, here is Orc Atavism:

Inner Sea Races, pg. 212 wrote:

Orc Atavism

Some half-orcs have much stronger orc blood than human blood. Such half-orcs count as only half-orcs and orcs (not also humans) for any effect related to race. They gain a +2 bonus to Strength and a –2 penalty to one mental ability score of their choice. Finally, they gain the ferocity universal monster ability. This racial trait replaces the half-orc’s usual racial ability score modifiers, as well as intimidating, orc blood, and orc ferocity.

So, that says they count as half-orcs and orcs, but NOT as humans.

Then Racial Heritage:

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:

Racial Heritage

The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.

Prerequisites: Human.

Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.

Okay, so then I always assumed that you couldn't take Racial Heritage: Half-Orc, since it's kinda pointless. I mean, aside from a few racial archetype and (in the case of half-elves) a few feats that only serve to divorce you of one or the other [or both], when are you ever going to find an ability or even bane that is half-elf or half-orc ONLY? Every single Half-Orc feat in the ARG can be taken by Orcs too... the same cannot be said for Orc feats, however it can in the case of a half-orc because they count as an orc...

However, the existence of Orc Atavism now has me rethinking that... Can you take Racial Heritage: Half-Orc, which would then basically be the human equivalent of Orc Atavism? You are a human, you are a half-orc, but you are NOT an orc, and you are still NOT susceptible to orc bane weapons.. because you are human and half-orc, NOT an orc. Furthermore, if you take Racial Heritage: Orc you cannot take Half-Orc feats, unless it can also be taken by humans or orcs? So, Racial Heritage: Elf doesn't qualify you for Half-Elf/Half-Orc racial archetypes, only Racial Heritage: Half-Elf/Half-Orc does, same with Racial Heritage: Half-Orc does NOT qualify you for Orc feats?

Could I make a villain that hated the half-races but had no problem with humans, elves or orcs; could such a bigot make a Half-Elf/Half-Orc bane weapon that would not harm humans, elves or orcs; just the half-breeds?

[Nefreet]

Bane has to target a humanoid subtype, such as "human" or "orc". That's why it works against Half-orcs, because they typically have both subtypes. You can't create a "Half-orc Bane weapon.

Some effects target specific races, and some target specific types or subtypes. And sometimes it's uncertain exactly what's being targeted.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

Okay, so then what does taking Racial Heritage: Half-Orc actually get you? Pretty much nothing except a few feats that you can get those and more by taking Racial Heritage: Orc. The one exception I an think of being Pass for Human, which is a complete waste of a feat because you are already human first...

Sure, the couple of archetypes if you really really want to be a human with those archetypes for some reason, but I wouldn't say that's worth a feat, just play a half-orc at that point...

Just trying to figure out what besides those few archetypes anyone would ever take RH: Half-Orc over RH:Orc?

Then on the atavism side, again other than those few archetypes, aren't you just a gimped orc? Not even really a half-orc except on paper?

Also, I will note I am not talking about PFS rules here, I know Racial Heritage: Orc wouldn't be allowed in the first place in PFS.

[Nefreet]

I'm not understanding why you're focusing on Racial Heritage (Half-orc). Just don't choose Half-orc?

Same thing for Atavism. It's generally not considered useful. Maybe some fringe build, somewhere.

And Racial Heritage is legal in PFS. You could even choose Racial Heritage (Goblin).

It's just that most of the things you'd want to use Racial Heritage for aren't legal.

[Chess Pwn]

Is racial heritage (half-orc) a valid choice?
If so, am I then Human And Human and Orc? the effective end being both human and orc like a half orc? Or am I just human and nothing else?

[David knott 242]

A Half-Orc by default meets the racial prerequisites of Half-Orc, Human, and Orc.

A Human without the Racial Heritage feat meets only the racial prerequisite of Human.

A Human with Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) meets the racial prerequisites of Human and Half-Orc. He does not count as an Orc even though it is virtually certain that he has Orc ancestors.

A Human with Racial Heritage (Orc) meets the racial prerequisites of Human and Orc. He does not counts as a Half-Orc even though it is highly probably that he has at least one Half-Orc ancestor.

So yes, Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) and Racial Heritage (Orc) do in fact have different effects.

[Cavall]

Different effects perhaps. But valid ones?

I don't think so. I think it's human or orc you don't get to take the heritage of a race with little heritage.

[David knott 242]

There is nothing in the Racial Heritage feat that limits your selection of humanoid race (in contrast to, for example, the Adoptive Parentage alternate racial trait).