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The Planar Oracle archetype from Ultimate Magic has the oracle eventually ascend into becoming an outsider and gains the extraplanar subtype when not on their newly associated plane which makes sense.
What doesn't make sense is that if the oracle then travels to their associated plane they suddenly gain the native subtype. Does that mean the oracle's soul and body suddenly separate on their "home plane"? Did the writer think that all outsiders became "Native" on their homeplane? Why would a Hell-attuned outsider who is extraplanar on the material plane suddenly become tied to the material plane if they go to hell?
Don't know why you feel that the Soul and Body would separate on it's home plane. There are lots of Outsider that have a body and soul, or are one in the same.
It's first showing that the Planar Oracle now belongs to the associated Outer Sphere by giving him a typing similar to other natural beings of that plane.
The Extraplanar/Native subtyping is simply so you can't dismiss or Banish a Outsider on it's home world- because that would be just down right embarrassing.
All Outsiders(Extraplanar) do the Extraplanar/Native flip flop. Devils and Angels all. The Planar Orcale's description mirrors the write up already on the Extraplanar subtype.
Perhaps the confusion is that there are occasionally Outsiders that are ALWAYS Outsiders (Native), these are generally outsiders that are part or tied to mortals or the Material plane. It is these guys that are actually the special cases.
Not 100% Paizo's lore reason for this, but it might be a hold over from D&D which had a rather long winded explanation.
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Now, the planar oracle has text allowing them to be raised regardless of what plane they're on, but the sleeping thing creates a very problematic oddity.
If you're on your chosen plane, you have the native subtype, so you suddenly need to eat, drink, and sleep. But while on the Material Plane, you do not.
If you were on the Material Plane for a year, but then visited your plane briefly, would you suddenly feel the need for a year's worth of sleep?
What about the opposite? You were on your chosen plane for long enough that you became incredibly sleepy, but instead of going to sleep, you just switched over to a different plane. Would you just not be sleepy anymore?
It really doesn't feel like the archetype was thought through.
^Suddenly I just realized that Planar Oracle is the archetype for Garfield . . . Nap attack!
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Don't know why you feel that the Soul and Body would separate on it's home plane. There are lots of Outsider that have a body and soul, or are one in the same.
According to the type and subtype rules, Outsiders souls are their bodies, unless the outsider has the native subtype in which case their souls are separate to their bodies.
It's first showing that the Planar Oracle now belongs to the associated Outer Sphere by giving him a typing similar to other natural beings of that plane.
Outsider that are on their home plane do not gain the native subtype, they lose the extraplanar subtype.
The Extraplanar/Native subtyping is simply so you can't dismiss or Banish a Outsider on it's home world- because that would be just down right embarrassing.
All Outsiders(Extraplanar) do the Extraplanar/Native flip flop. Devils and Angels all. The Planar Orcale's description mirrors the write up already on the Extraplanar subtype.
That's not how the extraplanar/native subtypes work at all, which is why I made this thread since the creator of this archetype obviously made the same mistake as you.
If a creature is on a plane it is not "native to" it gains the extraplanar subtype allowing it to be banished, but while on it's home plane it automatically loses the extraplanar subtype meaning you cannot dismiss or banish it on it's homeworld as it's already on it's homeworld. The native subtype on the other hand makes it so the outsider is tied to the material plane rather than an outer or inner or other plane, makes them have souls separate to their bodies, and adds in the vulnerabilities of needing to eat and sleep because they are basically mortal outsiders. Extraplanar subtype and native subtype are not associated with each other in anyway.
Devils lose the extraplanar subtype when in Hell, they do not become native outsiders. Tieflings gain the extraplanar subtype when in hell, and do not lose the native subtype.
Not 100% Paizo's lore reason for this, but it might be a hold over from D&D which had a rather long winded explanation.
No, it comes from assuming outsiders change between Native and Extraplanar subtypes and it directly conflicts with lore of both D&D and Pathfinder.
So what is the problem?
On the Material plane a Tiefling is Outsider (Native), has a body, has a soul, can not be banished. In Hell, they become Outsider (Extraplanar) and can be banished, but still have a body and soul.
On the Material plane the oracle is Outsider (Extraplanar), has a body, has a soul, and can be banished. In Hell (assuming they choose Hell as their plane) they become Outsider (Native), can not be banished, but still have a body and soul.
The Planar Oracle archetype reads:
Unlike other outsiders, you can still be brought back from the dead as if you were a member of your previous creature type.
Since the reason other outsiders can't be rezzed is that they do not have a separate body and soul, this means the oracle still does, since they can be rezzed.
The Planar Oracle archetype from Ultimate Magic has the oracle eventually ascend into becoming an outsider and gains the extraplanar subtype when not on their newly associated plane which makes sense.
What doesn't make sense is that if the oracle then travels to their associated plane they suddenly gain the native subtype. Does that mean the oracle's soul and body suddenly separate on their "home plane"? Did the writer think that all outsiders became "Native" on their homeplane? Why would a Hell-attuned outsider who is extraplanar on the material plane suddenly become tied to the material plane if they go to hell?
All outsiders lose the extraplanar quality when on thier native plane. This simply means that they can't be banished from their home planes or hedged against with Protection from Alignment spells... nothing else.
The separation of soul and body has nothing to do with being native. PC's traveling to other planes gain the extraplanar subtype but their souls remain separate from their bodies.
You're going to get specific wooliness from time to time as the writing goes under the base assumption that PC's remain native to the material plane.
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So what is the problem?
It makes no sense at all for it to change so ridiculously when it goes to it's homeplane and doesn't follow how outsiders work at all. Why would an outsider become tied to the material plane when on their homeplane?
On the Material plane a Tiefling is Outsider (Native), has a body, has a soul, can not be banished. In Hell, they become Outsider (Extraplanar) and can be banished, but still have a body and soul.
No. In hell, they become outsider (Extraplanar, Native). Native subtype is not lost ever, regardless of which plane you are on. You either have it or you don't.
On the Material plane the oracle is Outsider (Extraplanar), has a body, has a soul, and can be banished. In Hell (assuming they choose Hell as their plane) they become Outsider (Native), can not be banished, but still have a body and soul.
No it's soul is it's body while it's on the material plane, and then suddenly when it goes to Hell it their body would cease to be their soul and suddenly a soul would be contained within them.
The Planar Oracle archetype reads:
Unlike other outsiders, you can still be brought back from the dead as if you were a member of your previous creature type.Since the reason other outsiders can't be rezzed is that they do not have a separate body and soul, this means the oracle still does, since they can be rezzed.
That line makes it worse, since it removes the entire point for the native subtype even being created.
All outsiders lose the extraplanar quality when on thier native plane. This simply means that they can't be banished from their home planes or hedged against with Protection from Alignment spells... nothing else.
Yes.... I know that. I haven't argued against that. I'm arguing against it suddenly gaining the native subtype when on it's home plane, which acts counter to how the subtype works.
The separation of soul and body has nothing to do with being native. PC's traveling to other planes gain the extraplanar subtype but their souls remain separate from their bodies.
No the separate the soul and body does have to do with being Native. Outsiders according to the rules have their souls as their bodies "Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. " And the Native subtype removes that aspect, allowing the outsider to be resurrected easily because their bodies/soul relationship are more mortal in nature rather than having their soul act as a body. The extraplanar subtype does not make their souls separate from their bodies, because extraplanar subtype has Nothing to do with the native subtype at all.
You're going to get specific wooliness from time to time as the writing goes under the base assumption that PC's remain native to the material plane.
Again.... I know that, it says that in the extraplanar subtype rules. My issue is with the writer's belief that outsiders gain the native subtype when on their homeplane as if outsiders shift from extraplanar to native depending on what plane they are on when actually the two are not related at all. Please don't argue against things I didn't actually raise...
Native Subtype: This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Native subtype actually doesn't say anything about where the soul of the creature resides, or if it has one separate from the body. It simply says that the creature can be rezzed. Like the Planar Oracle can be.
Milo, do you have an actual rules question or are you just venting?
Native subtype actually doesn't say anything about where the soul of the creature resides, or if it has one separate from the body. It simply says that the creature can be rezzed. Like the Planar Oracle can be.
True, though there is the implication that native outsiders have seperate souls because of soul-bodies being the reason for not being able to be raised, it specifically list the soul being.
Stil, it doesn't make any sense for a Planar Oracle (Hell) to suddenly gain an increased link to the material plane when in Hell.
Milo, do you have an actual rules question or are you just venting?
Sorta the first one. I saw a rules issue, and I wanted to make sure wasn't misinterpreting it or anything since it makes no sense from the native and extraplanar subtype rules.
Just curious, has a situation ever arisen in your gameplay where this question needs to be answered? Not conceptual curiosity but an actual in-game situation or in a PFS scenario?
I was considering stating 20th level/2 Mythic Tiers Planar Oracle as a major NPC, and planar metaphysics sorta comes up a decent amount in my group's setting.
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Seems like the individual who authored it just got confused about extraplanar and native. I think the author was trying to say they would be native to their newly chosen plane, but thats not what the Native subtype does in Pathfinder. You are represented as native to a plane by not having the extraplanar subtype. Fun fact, human characters become extraplanar when they leave the material plane and are subject to dismissal and banishment.
The native subtype is used to represent outsiders who are closer to normal mortals (tiefling and aasimar) than most outsiders are.