If you take Vestigial Arm, and then Feral Mutagen, can you use one hand to use your (one handed) weapon, and two other hands to make the claw attacks? The arm didn't let me take an extra attack, taking Feral Mutagen did ("...gains two claw attacks..."). The extra arm just gave me enough limbs to use the attacks that I gained through Feral Mutagen. Is my interpretation correct?
there was a massive debate about this a few years ago and the rules people at Paizo have shfited some since then but the last time we got close to a consensus was that so long as you dont gain the ability to make more attacks using the vestigial arms than you can use the arms to make attacks. In your example, if you did not have the arms, you could choose to TWF with Unarmed Strikes from your legs, at -4/-8 and then make two claw attacks at -5/-5. with the vestigial arms you could manifest your claws there and still use your natural arms to weild a weapon and make your attacks at -0/-5/-5 and your claws only deal 0.5 STR mod. You are actually choosing to forgo an extra attack you could have otherwise made... but you should make that choice because going -4/-8/-5/-05 with 0.5 STR on three of those with a 3/4 BAB chassis is a bad idea.
Where this really shines is with something that already has some claws, Tieflings, Tengu, Catfolk, Werekin, taking Aspect of the Beast, something like that, so you already have two claws and could fight with claw/claw/kick/kick but thanks to the vestigial arms and feral mutagen you can upgrade to claw/claw/claw/claw, all at -0 and all with your full strength mod.
I thought that since the claws are primary attacks that they don't suffer the 1/2 strength or BAB-5 setbacks. When you have multiple primary attacks, in a full attack you can use them all at full BAB, can't you? I was thinking something like having a 1-handed weapon, two claws, a bite (from Feral Mutagen), and then from the Barbarian's Lesser Fiend Totem rage power I'd gain a gore attack. The gore attack says it's primary unless I'm using a weapon (in this case I am), so it would be a secondary attack at BAB-5.
Natural Attacks wrote: Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
Mixing natural attacks with manufactured weapons moves them to secondary status. "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."
its fairly easy to get five natural attacks going with this kind of build though. i think ragebred werekin can get up to six. usually with only dipping ranger or slayer 2.
Torbyne wrote: "...Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type." Ah, I should have continued reading past the table. This is definitely what I was looking for. Thanks!
I'm trying to build a PFS character. My alchemist would have been a Ragechemist/Vivisectionist if the latter wasn't banned. Skinwalkers are definitely not allowed.
I don't think one extra weapon attack is worth making my other 4 attacks secondary. Any ideas for getting more natural attacks?
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Elyalyn wrote: If you take Vestigial Arm, and then Feral Mutagen, can you use one hand to use your (one handed) weapon, and two other hands to make the claw attacks? The arm didn't let me take an extra attack, taking Feral Mutagen did ("...gains two claw attacks..."). The extra arm just gave me enough limbs to use the attacks that I gained through Feral Mutagen. Is my interpretation correct? Relevant FAQ
There are clear and concise examples of what is and isn't allowed. Even if you apply Feral Mutagen to your base limbs, you can't use your extra limbs to attack (though they may hold components, or carry a shield).
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Via the FAQ Darksol linked, you get no extra attacks with vestigial limb.
None, not at all. Not even if you have other sources which grant additional methods of attacks like extra claws when you already have claws.
The FAQ leaves one case unmentioned though: wielding both reach and non-reach weapons. For example, with two vestigial arms, wielding both a 2H sword and a polearm.
Now you're not getting extra attacks directly (forbidden), but you do gain access to a greater number of options for your attacks (allowed). You would threaten a bigger number of squares and thus perhaps gain more attacks of opportunity. But for any given provocation you still don't gain more attacks than normal, so you stay within the limits.
Claxon, Darksol, Using that same FAQ you can perfectly follow the rules and still get Claw/Claw/Weapon; as i said above, without the vestigial arms a PC could still Claw/Claw/Unarmed Strike (or boot blade or the boulder helm or merfolk leg knife or that kyton beard thing...) In either example they would attack with weapon at full BAB and the claws at -5 with 0.5 STR, by spending the discovery for the Vestigial Arm a PC just gets a more latitude in the choices they have for the weapon attack.
What i went on to discuss is how, in a specific build, you can get a lot more value out of the discovery by only using natural attacks. even then it is a legitimate use of the discovery because even if it becomes far more valuable it still doesn't grant any number of attacks greater than would otherwise be possible.
Looking at it in another way, manufactured weapons which includes unarmed strikes, are limited by hands of effort while natural attacks are limited to limbs. in the pre and post Vestigial Arm scenarios both PCs are using one hand of effort for a one handed weapon and two limbs for natural attacks.
@ Ascalaphus: I would assume that wielding two two-handed weapons would be legal. You would probably also be able to use both of them in a single full-attack, though not to TWF (just like anyone wielding two weapons can use both without TWF).
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Torbyne wrote: Claxon, Darksol, Using that same FAQ you can perfectly follow the rules and still get Claw/Claw/Weapon; as i said above, without the vestigial arms a PC could still Claw/Claw/Unarmed Strike (or boot blade or the boulder helm or merfolk leg knife or that kyton beard thing...) In either example they would attack with weapon at full BAB and the claws at -5 with 0.5 STR, by spending the discovery for the Vestigial Arm a PC just gets a more latitude in the choices they have for the weapon attack.
What i went on to discuss is how, in a specific build, you can get a lot more value out of the discovery by only using natural attacks. even then it is a legitimate use of the discovery because even if it becomes far more valuable it still doesn't grant any number of attacks greater than would otherwise be possible.
Looking at it in another way, manufactured weapons which includes unarmed strikes, are limited by hands of effort while natural attacks are limited to limbs. in the pre and post Vestigial Arm scenarios both PCs are using one hand of effort for a one handed weapon and two limbs for natural attacks.
Except, without the Vestigial Arm, you could only make one claw attack with a weapon. Why? Because the FAQ says:
FAQ wrote: At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs...
That "other ability" most commonly refers to Feral Mutagen (which was the biggest argument made pre-FAQ). So, if you had Claws in two hands, and a weapon in your Vestigial, you could only attack with one Claw and the Weapon, or two Claws. Never all three at once.
The Claw/Claw/Unarmed Strike would apply regardless, but only because Unarmed Strikes can be done without hands, and without the Vestigial Arm discovery. Of course, if you attempted to use an Unarmed Strike, or more accurately, a Gauntlet attack with the Vestigial Arm, you would be forced to forgo either the Gauntlet attack, or one of the Claw attacks. (Or perform the Unarmed Strike without the Gauntlet. But that's your call.)
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If you want a character that can use additional arms to make additional attacks, you have only a few options:
1) gain the mutant creature template (Extra Arm mutation)
2) synthesist summoner with a humanoid eidolon and the Limbs (Arms) evolution (although, technically, the eidolon has the extra arms and is still limited by the Max. [natural] Attacks column of the eidolon table)
3) a normal or master summoner that uses the Aspect class feature gained at level 10 on the Limbs (Arms) evolution.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Torbyne wrote: Claxon, Darksol, Using that same FAQ you can perfectly follow the rules and still get Claw/Claw/Weapon; as i said above, without the vestigial arms a PC could still Claw/Claw/Unarmed Strike (or boot blade or the boulder helm or merfolk leg knife or that kyton beard thing...) In either example they would attack with weapon at full BAB and the claws at -5 with 0.5 STR, by spending the discovery for the Vestigial Arm a PC just gets a more latitude in the choices they have for the weapon attack.
What i went on to discuss is how, in a specific build, you can get a lot more value out of the discovery by only using natural attacks. even then it is a legitimate use of the discovery because even if it becomes far more valuable it still doesn't grant any number of attacks greater than would otherwise be possible.
Looking at it in another way, manufactured weapons which includes unarmed strikes, are limited by hands of effort while natural attacks are limited to limbs. in the pre and post Vestigial Arm scenarios both PCs are using one hand of effort for a one handed weapon and two limbs for natural attacks.
Except, without the Vestigial Arm, you could only make one claw attack with a weapon. Why? Because the FAQ says:
FAQ wrote: At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs...
That "other ability" most commonly refers to Feral Mutagen (which was the biggest argument made pre-FAQ). So, if you had Claws in two hands, and a weapon in your Vestigial, you could only attack with one Claw and the Weapon, or two Claws. Never all three at once.
The Claw/Claw/Unarmed Strike would apply regardless, but only because Unarmed Strikes can be done without... i was using the same logic to get to the other conclusion, you could make 4 attacks without the extra arms so you can make 4 with the arms. the fact that some of those attacks could be better with the arms is outside the restrictions of the discovery or the FAQ.
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Torbyne wrote: Claxon, Darksol, Using that same FAQ you can perfectly follow the rules and still get Claw/Claw/Weapon; as i said above, without the vestigial arms a PC could still Claw/Claw/Unarmed Strike (or boot blade or the boulder helm or merfolk leg knife or that kyton beard thing...) In either example they would attack with weapon at full BAB and the claws at -5 with 0.5 STR, by spending the discovery for the Vestigial Arm a PC just gets a more latitude in the choices they have for the weapon attack.
What i went on to discuss is how, in a specific build, you can get a lot more value out of the discovery by only using natural attacks. even then it is a legitimate use of the discovery because even if it becomes far more valuable it still doesn't grant any number of attacks greater than would otherwise be possible.
Looking at it in another way, manufactured weapons which includes unarmed strikes, are limited by hands of effort while natural attacks are limited to limbs. in the pre and post Vestigial Arm scenarios both PCs are using one hand of effort for a one handed weapon and two limbs for natural attacks.
You're example works only because of unarmed strikes. Since unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body, you could make claw attacks with your hands and make unarmed strikes with other parts of your body. You could even make two unarmed strikes by TWF.
But in order to qualify to have 4 attacks in the round, you would need to use TWF and use unarmed strikes, and if combined with vestigial arm you could still make 4 attacks assuming you used attacks that did unarmed strikes and TWF. But you couldn't make 4 claw attacks because it would give you extra attacks compared to what you could normally do (because normally you don't have enough arms to support 4 claw attacks).
Claxon wrote: Torbyne wrote: Claxon, Darksol, Using that same FAQ you can perfectly follow the rules and still get Claw/Claw/Weapon; as i said above, without the vestigial arms a PC could still Claw/Claw/Unarmed Strike (or boot blade or the boulder helm or merfolk leg knife or that kyton beard thing...) In either example they would attack with weapon at full BAB and the claws at -5 with 0.5 STR, by spending the discovery for the Vestigial Arm a PC just gets a more latitude in the choices they have for the weapon attack.
What i went on to discuss is how, in a specific build, you can get a lot more value out of the discovery by only using natural attacks. even then it is a legitimate use of the discovery because even if it becomes far more valuable it still doesn't grant any number of attacks greater than would otherwise be possible.
Looking at it in another way, manufactured weapons which includes unarmed strikes, are limited by hands of effort while natural attacks are limited to limbs. in the pre and post Vestigial Arm scenarios both PCs are using one hand of effort for a one handed weapon and two limbs for natural attacks.
You're example works only because of unarmed strikes. Since unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body, you could make claw attacks with your hands and make unarmed strikes with other parts of your body. You could even make two unarmed strikes by TWF.
But in order to qualify to have 4 attacks in the round, you would need to use TWF and use unarmed strikes, and if combined with vestigial arm you could still make 4 attacks assuming you used attacks that did unarmed strikes and TWF. But you couldn't make 4 claw attacks because it would give you extra attacks compared to what you could normally do (because normally you don't have enough arms to support 4 claw attacks). this is the exact point we were discussing with SKR... two, maybe three years ago, Vestigial Arms has a strict limit on not adding any additional number of attacks than you could before but has no limit on the quality of those attacks. 4=4 even if the post Vestigial Arms 4 is at full BAB. Likewise you can grab a Vestigial Arm to wield a shield and greatsword.
You can make the argument, but SKR is gone and that discussion didn't make it into the rules. We have the FAQ that we have and it supports what Darksol and I are saying.
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Vestigial arms was among the most foolish things they wrote. Caused 7 still causes endless argle-bargle and is basically useless.
The Errata should have been:" vestigial arm: this discovery has been eliminated. It no longer exists. This discovery is no more! It has ceased to be! it's expired."
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Nah, having a wand in the verstigal hand is nice. Even a shield is fine in my opinion. It should simply never be allowed to participate in a weapon or natural attack.
DrDeth wrote: Vestigial arms was among the most foolish things they wrote. Caused 7 still causes endless argle-bargle and is basically useless.
The Errata should have been:" vestigial arm: this discovery has been eliminated. It no longer exists. This discovery is no more! It has ceased to be! it's expired."
Well, it at least tried to give a clear intent, it is just people asked whether claws circumvented that. IT also has its uses since it lets you have both hands full and still grab you extracts and such.
It is certainly not at the level of racial heritage, which is DESIGNED to do crazy things and make crazy combos that were previously never intended, or worse.... the adopt trait, which is similar in nature but carries the added 'fun' of dealing with overly similar terms (ie: race trait and racial trait).
Those two I wish were errata'd into simply some choice expletives and a big old 'NO'.
Claxon wrote: You can make the argument, but SKR is gone and that discussion didn't make it into the rules. We have the FAQ that we have and it supports what Darksol and I are saying. The discussion went hand in hand with the FAQ, it is all the same point. the FAQ is the same answer as what SKR gave, so long as the number of attacks you are making is not changed by Vestigial Arms than you can freely use the arms to make attacks in lieu of other limbs or options. if they want to remove the ability of the arms to make attacks than the FAQ could much more simply say that they cant not be used to wield weapons or make attacks.
The FAQ isn't the same answer that SKR gave though. What SKR tried to say and what the FAQ says are different things. At no time does the FAQ doesn't mention number of attacks, that was all something SKR talked about that never made it to anything official.
Ultimately, to the OP...have your GM read the FAQ and decide how it works. End of story.
Also, I'm not saying the arms can't be used to make attacks, I'm saying they can't be used to make "extra attacks" or attacks you couldn't have made without having extra limbs.
The easiest way to think of vestigial arm is like an extra hand (but only to hold things) on an arm. If you have already used that arm to attack in some way you can't use it to attack in another way. But, you could use that extra hand to hold a shield or wand. Or another type of weapon for different damage types. It's also great at helping you reload if you're going to TWF with light crossbows, slings, pistols, etc.
DrDeth wrote: Vestigial arms was among the most foolish things they wrote. Caused 7 still causes endless argle-bargle and is basically useless.
The Errata should have been:" vestigial arm: this discovery has been eliminated. It no longer exists. This discovery is no more! It has ceased to be! it's expired."
No. It should have been something like "extra limbs from Vestigial Arm cannot be used to perform attacks. Extra limbs from Tentacle can only attack if replacing an existing natural attack, or instead of all of ones iterative attacks".
I don't know why they cared so much about Vestigial limbs being able to attack.
"Torbyne wrote: In your example, if you did not have the arms, you could choose to TWF with Unarmed Strikes from your legs, at -4/-8 and then make two claw attacks at -5/-5. with the vestigial arms you could manifest your claws there and still use your natural arms to weild a weapon and make your attacks at -0/-5/-5 and your claws only deal 0.5 STR mod. You are actually choosing to forgo an extra attack you could have otherwise made... but you should make that choice because going -4/-8/-5/-05 with 0.5 STR on three of those with a 3/4 BAB chassis is a bad idea.
Where this really shines is with something that already has some claws, Tieflings, Tengu, Catfolk, Werekin, taking Aspect of the Beast, something like that, so you already have two claws and could fight with claw/claw/kick/kick but thanks to the vestigial arms and feral mutagen you can upgrade to claw/claw/claw/claw, all at -0 and all with your full strength mod.
That's not comparing attack actions fairly though.
One needs to compare the same attack action, otherwise it's comparing apples with oranges.
If someone's performing only natural weapon attacks it needs to be compared to only natural weapon attacks. If someone's performing iterative plus natural attacks, they need to use that same iterative plus natural attack scheme.
Vestigial arm would not grant the ability to perform attacks when the comparison is performed properly.
Joesi wrote: DrDeth wrote: Vestigial arms was among the most foolish things they wrote. Caused 7 still causes endless argle-bargle and is basically useless.
The Errata should have been:" vestigial arm: this discovery has been eliminated. It no longer exists. This discovery is no more! It has ceased to be! it's expired."
No. It should have been something like "extra limbs from Vestigial Arm cannot be used to perform attacks. Extra limbs from Tentacle can only attack if replacing an existing natural attack, or instead of all of ones iterative attacks".
I don't know why they cared so much about Vestigial limbs being able to attack.
"Torbyne wrote: In your example, if you did not have the arms, you could choose to TWF with Unarmed Strikes from your legs, at -4/-8 and then make two claw attacks at -5/-5. with the vestigial arms you could manifest your claws there and still use your natural arms to weild a weapon and make your attacks at -0/-5/-5 and your claws only deal 0.5 STR mod. You are actually choosing to forgo an extra attack you could have otherwise made... but you should make that choice because going -4/-8/-5/-05 with 0.5 STR on three of those with a 3/4 BAB chassis is a bad idea.
Where this really shines is with something that already has some claws, Tieflings, Tengu, Catfolk, Werekin, taking Aspect of the Beast, something like that, so you already have two claws and could fight with claw/claw/kick/kick but thanks to the vestigial arms and feral mutagen you can upgrade to claw/claw/claw/claw, all at -0 and all with your full strength mod.
That's not comparing attack actions fairly though.
One needs to compare the same attack action, otherwise it's comparing apples with oranges.
If someone's performing only natural weapon attacks it needs to be compared to only natural weapon attacks. If someone's performing iterative plus natural attacks, they need to use that same iterative plus natural attack scheme.
Vestigial arm would not grant the ability to perform attacks when the... You absolutely do not need to make that comparison and people reading the FAQ and then adding that logic into it themselves is where the conflict comes in at.
The FAQ is A1=A2, where A1 is the number of attacks you could make without the discovery and A2 is the number of attacks you can make with the discovery.
To quote the FAQ itself "It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery." and "the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.
Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists."
But in all examples it is not the Vestigial Arms adding to the number of possible attacks, it is another ability, a rage power, a mutagen, a spell, Aspect of the Beast, those are the source of the additional attacks.
A level 2 discovery that granted a permanent extra attack would be powerful and is beyond the intent of Vestigial Arm. Taking a discovery and a feat and then another discovery, feat, spell or class to eventually get to two extra natural attacks isnt breaking anything. finding the right combination to get two extra natural attacks on a character built for natural attacks is great, but that is how the game is designed, a lot of stuff that is kind of good except for that one build you are going for and then it becomes great.
The fact that Vestigial Arm doesn't in and of itself grant extra attacks is irrelevant, since the whole purpose of the FAQ answer was to deal with sources that make that extra limb useful for attacking. How else is one to gain attacks with vestigial Arm? What would that FAQ answer be for if not that? The original discovery already made it clear that it doesn't grant extra attacks, and the FAQ clarification is referring to any other methods of gaining attacks if it involves using a vestigial limb.
Don't forget that it still says the word "extra", which doesn't just mean "more", but rather "additional above what's already there". Changing an attack sequence so that a bunch of the original attacks are removed is not "extra" but rather overall greater number due to re-working of the attacks used.
Lastly it's totally silly to say "hey I could have done TWF iterative unarmed attacks at -4 and -8 which provoke attacks of opportunity and which reduce my other attacks hit chance by 5" and consider that to be a fair comparison with the intention of "extra attacks". It's being disingenuous and arrogantly defying intentions of the statement.
I think what they originally meant was "it doesn't matter how many arms you have, you don't get more attacks than normal for your BAB", because a lot of people might think that "2 hands -> 2 weapon fighting; 3 hands -> 3 weapon fighting?". And that wasn't what they wanted.
Next up they didn't want people screwing claws onto the vestigial arms and gaining more attacks that way. Also prevented.
But then you have the situation where someone might make attacks with a non-arm weapon (armor spikes perhaps) followed by claw attacks. If he grows another pair of arms and holds a sword in them, and uses that sword instead of the armor spikes, and then tries to make claw attacks, he hasn't gained extra attacks. The number of attacks he's making remains the same. But the quality might well improve.
Joesi, it is entirely fair because it is a legitimate attack routine and if you wanted to spend a feat or dip a level into any number of classes you could get around all of those penalties. Once again, spending a resource makes a thing possible and spending multiple resources towards that thing makes it even better. If the arms are not intended to be of use in combat than it needs to plainly state that. as to "hanging an attack sequence so that a bunch of the original attacks are removed is not "extra" but rather overall greater number due to re-working of the attacks used." This is not right, i am not sure exactly what you meant by saying its an overall greater number of attacks. What changes is the type of attacks, from manufactured weapon to natural, but the number, absolute or overall or any other way of saying specific number, does not change. The FAQ only limits that factor, the specific number of attacks that a character can make.
Ascalaphus, I completely agree with you, the intent was to prevent gaining more attacks than they could otherwise make. they probably did not think about quality of attacks... but remember that a level 1 Tengu Monk can make 5 attacks by mixing natural and unarmed strikes. a level 2 Ragebred ranger can have 5 natural attacks, six if they were adopted by orcs. a 2nd level discovery that allows you to swap out a poor attack for one that might have a -0 penalty instead isnt exactly earth shattering. And to get the most out of the arms you need the discovery twice and some other means of gaining claws, so several levels and numerous feats or class abilities to remove penalties to your attacks and even then, without building just for natural attacks you are still left with -5 and .5 strength on the natural attacks.
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