
alessio fiorillo |
What do you think about the idea of a summoner who takes one single level as swashbuckler ? in this way I could get war weapons and medium armors (making one of them as mithral it will be considered as a light one) profiency and weapon finesse feat in addition to panache and the first three (for me the best) deeds=
eventually I was wandering to take inspired blade archetype in order to get also weapon focus as bonus feat and go specialized with the rapier.
I think it could work also because they are both classes dex and car based and once summoned eidolon of monsters and casted a couple of spells the characther has few things to do in combat...what do you think?

Saethori |

One level dips in Swashbuckler are nice, but taking away from eidolon progression is huge.
If you really don't mind the loss of a single level, that level will greatly improve your survivability in combat and help you mix it up in melee (which means your eidolon can support your AC with Shield Ally).

Joynt Jezebel |

In its original form, I don't see your idea as an optimal power option. Summoners summon stuff, if you want to be good at melee play a fighter or somesuch.
There is a melee summoner build around, google should bring it up, or a version. The idea is you have teamwork feats and team up with your eidolon. You could incorporate your idea of one level of Swashbuckler.
The normal wisdom is the best race for summoner is half elf, though for your idea something with +2 to cha and dex should also be considered. Drow is one, but there are others.

David knott 242 |

Here is the full text:
"Kindred-Raised: While most think of people with one human and one elven parent when they think of half-elves, some half-elves are raised by two half-elven parents. Such half-elves feel less like outsiders, making them more confident, but less adaptable without the exposure to a human parent. They gain a +2 bonus to Charisma and one other ability score of their choice. This racial trait replaces the half-elf's usual racial ability score modifiers, as well as adaptability, elven immunities, keen senses, and multitalented. Source PCS:ISR"

David knott 242 |

Compared to a Human with Dual Talent, a Half-Elf with Kindred Raised retains Elf Blood (counting as Human and Elf in addition to Half-Elf), Low-Light Vision, and Elven as an automatic language. If you want to boost two ability scores and one of them is charisma, this is the best way to do it via a core race.

Hobit of Bree |
I'm thinking about doing this in my current game at level 5.
Note: I'm mainly doing this to gimp my character as the summoner I'm playing is quite OP compared to the rest of the party.
Now it does help a lot. The ability to add CHR to AC for one attack (and move away from the rest) is huge, at least for a while.
But what I'm looking at is taking Way of the Shooting Star as a feat at level 5. That gives a decent attack (+9 attack, d3+5 damage).
Nut honestly hat's nothing compared to what I could do otherwise...
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If you aren't going to use a starknife, unchained monk kata master is probably better.

alessio fiorillo |
I don't have acces to such materials...as I said before, I'm not looking for OP but just to fit my idea to combine summoner with one level as swashbuckler (two classes that I love so much) with the best race...I'll start from the 5th level and I'm not able to choose the correct race...also because in my plan I have to take the inspired blade archetype (as said) and use rapier with slashing grace. but at the same time I'd like to take augment summoning and superior summoning and resilient eidolon...in this optic I was wondering to chosse human for the bonus feat (since to optimize swashbuckler level it's necessary to take combat reflexes as well)
My idea for the charachteristics is to base charachter on dextrity with good charisma (for bonus spells and panache) and not so negletictable intelligence (for skill ranks and also panache since using inspired blade)...
it is so difficult to match also my desires I know but I don't know what to give away :(

Derklord |

I think you should decide on what you actual want.
The Swashbuckler dip sounds like you want to enter melee alongside your Eidolon.
"I'd like to take augment summoning and superior summoning" sounds like you want to use either your Summon Monster spell-like ability or the actual spells. The first clashes with having the eidolon out for combat, and both clash with fighting in melee (because you are standing there summoning instead of fighting).
It's totally fine to play a Summoner in melee, but you have to realize that you need to invest in melee to be useful in it. You'll need to spend feats and spell slots on yourself. And you'll probably still want to cast Haste first round of combat (which really helps your party members not feel outclassed).
Regarding armor: Since you really don't want spell failure chance, medium armor is flat out. Mithral breastplate without medium armor proficiency would bestow a -1 penalty on attack rolls, which can be negated with the Armor Expert trait from Ultimate Campaign.
Regarding race: Half-Elf is the strongest choice if you have the Eidolon out all the time, but apart from that, it doesn't really matter much (again, presuming Eidolon centric playstyle and not summoning). You don't even need a Charisma bonus!
I think that just one single level isn't a so great loss for eidolon progression, is it?
It's not just Eidolon progression, it's also spells and Summon Monster SLA. Still, it doesn't kill you - Summoner is a very strong class, even with a "lost" level.

alessio fiorillo |
The Swashbuckler dip sounds like you want to enter melee alongside your Eidolon.
"I'd like to take augment summoning and superior summoning" sounds like you want to use either your Summon Monster spell-like ability or the actual spells. The first clashes with having the eidolon out for combat, and both clash with fighting in melee (because you are standing there summoning instead of fighting).
It isn't totally true because I think that having all these options makes you more flexible. Moreover augment summoning works also on eidolon if called with summon eidolon spell (2nd level)
Regarding armor: Since you really don't want spell failure chance, medium armor is flat out. Mithral breastplate without medium armor proficiency would bestow a -1 penalty on attack rolls, which can be negated with the Armor Expert trait from Ultimate Campaign.
Here you are wrong because swashbuckler level provides you medium armor profiency.
Regarding race: Half-Elf is the strongest choice if you have the Eidolon out all the time, but apart from that, it doesn't really matter much (again, presuming Eidolon centric playstyle and not summoning). You don't even need a Charisma bonus!
I think Charisma bonus is important both for bonus spell (also going in melee summoner is however a spellcaster) but moreover for panache and swashbuckler deeds
alessio fiorillo wrote:I think that just one single level isn't a so great loss for eidolon progression, is it?It's not just Eidolon progression, it's also spells and Summon Monster SLA. Still, it doesn't kill you - Summoner is a very strong class, even with a "lost" level.
I don't lose spells since I'll have access to inner sea magic manual and joining a guild with 5 fame I can cast at an effective upper level...so it's just to lose one eidolon level

Derklord |

Derklord wrote:Here you are wrong because swashbuckler level provides you medium armor profiency.
Regarding armor: Since you really don't want spell failure chance, medium armor is flat out.
Nope, doesn't help. Summoner is an arcane spell caster, that means he has to roll for the armor's spell failure chance every time he casts a spell. Summoner has a class feature that let's him ignore the spell failure chance in light armor, and light armor only. Mithral medium armor counts as light for that class feature, so the standard mithral breeastplate is fine (my current Summoner wears one). A regular breastplate you'd have a 25% chance to fail every time you cast a spell.
It isn't totally true because I think that having all these options makes you more flexible. Moreover augment summoning works also on eidolon if called with summon eidolon spell (2nd level)
True on both things. But you must remember that if you spend your feats on summoning, and spend the first few rounds of combat summoning and buffing (Haste), you might not do much in melee. So you want Fencing Grace, Combat Reflexes, Resilient Eidolon, Spell Focus: Conjuration, and Augment Summoning. And that's without the stuff I'd normally suggest on a Summoner (like Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Items et al., Wasp Familiar, and multiple Extra Evolution).
I'm not saying it's crap, but you have to realize that your melee abilities might be severly underwhelming if you don't invest in them, and that the different styles you are persuing hinder each other regarding actions in combat.If you build your Eidolon well, you can basically do anything you want on your Summoner, the both of you together will rock anyway.
I think Charisma bonus is important both for bonus spell (also going in melee summoner is however a spellcaster) but moreover for panache and swashbuckler deeds
Sure, a racial bonus to charisma s a good thing to have, but not vital. For bonus spells, the difference between a 16 and an 18 is one 4th level spell - that's character level 10, at that point, you'll have a headband, so it's a mere 1st level spell you gain (i.e. slotless a 1000gp item).
Swashbuckler is not that charisma dependant that you can't live without a racial +2 to it.
alessio fiorillo |
Nope, doesn't help. Summoner is an arcane spell caster, that means he has to roll for the armor's spell failure chance every time he casts a spell. Summoner has a class feature that let's him ignore the spell failure chance in light armor, and light armor only. Mithral medium armor counts as light for that class feature, so the standard mithral breeastplate is fine (my current Summoner wears one). A regular breastplate you'd have a 25% chance to fail every time you cast a spell.
My fault not to have specified that but it's obvious I'll wear a mithral armor. but the profiency from swashbuckler is a good and great help
If you build your Eidolon well, you can basically do anything you want on your Summoner, the both of you together will rock anyway.
And so what do you think are good evolutions? which base form? (about the feats you mentioned...improved initiative is partially covered by the high dextrity, instead about craft wonderous items there will be a wizard in my group to get it)
Sure, a racial bonus to charisma s a good thing to have, but not vital. For bonus spells, the difference between a 16 and an 18 is one 4th level spell - that's character level 10, at that point, you'll have a headband, so it's a mere 1st level spell you gain (i.e. slotless a 1000gp item).Swashbuckler is not that charisma dependant that you can't live without a racial +2 to it.
I still think it is quite important but my concern is that I think it will be difficult still to get a 16 ... with a 15 points buy it is difficult to manage the charachteristics

Derklord |

And so what do you think are good evolutions? which base form?
Depends on what you want.
For straight damage: Quadruped, evolutions: Pounce, Claws with Limbs (Arms) and Gore to max out your natural attacks, Large/Huge, Energy Attacks, Bite (don't underestimate 1.5x Str and better Power Attack modifier), Ability Increase, Rend (once you have 4 Claws). In that priority order, basically. I do recomend maxing out Improved Natural Armor, too. For feats, the basics are Power Attack and Iron Will (vital!). After that, probably Outflank on both the Eidolon and you.Be warned though, that such an eidlon can easily outclass most martials. I currently play a Summoner with such an Eidolon, and it can go toe to toe with a well build wildshape druid regarding average damage - while the summoner can also cast spells. If I wouldn't cast Haste first round of every combat, my party members would probably feel rather worthless.
So if you want to spend some evolution points on stuff like Skilled, feel free.

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If you're dipping as a Summoner and you want to have your Eidolon out, consider what the Eidolon's role will be. Since you're dipping, the answer is less likely to be "solid melee damage"
Of course, if you're APG instead of Unchained, you'll be fine.
Consider a quad legged Mount with Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard. Staying on top of your Eidolon means the bonuses to AC and saves will always apply, and Bodyguard helps even more. Give it the Helpful trait via Extra Traits, Iron Will to make it less of a liability, and you're good.
Of course, you can't ride it til Summoner 8 when it can evolve Large, but until then it can stand by your side.

alessio fiorillo |
If you're dipping as a Summoner and you want to have your Eidolon out, consider what the Eidolon's role will be. Since you're dipping, the answer is less likely to be "solid melee damage"
Of course, if you're APG instead of Unchained, you'll be fine.
Consider a quad legged Mount with Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard. Staying on top of your Eidolon means the bonuses to AC and saves will always apply, and Bodyguard helps even more. Give it the Helpful trait via Extra Traits, Iron Will to make it less of a liability, and you're good.
Of course, you can't ride it til Summoner 8 when it can evolve Large, but until then it can stand by your side.
I was wondering to ride it (I'll take the quadruped form) but maybe this could reduce the utiliy of dipping into swashbuckler (i won't use so often Dodging Panache since I'll be mounting the eidolon)...I don't know. I was pretty sure that it could be a good idea to multiclass but I am not so sure at the moment