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The Share Training (Ex) class feature of the Eldritch Guardian (EG) states that the familiar can use all combat feats the EG can use.
Does that include weapon proficiencies?
I ask, as it would seem very silly to have to take a feat that provides a benefit I already have.
Relevant links.
EG Archtype
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fig hter-archetypes/eldritch-guardian-fighter-archetype
Fighter
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter
Martial Weapon Proficiency
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/martial-weapon-proficiency---fin al
Heavy Armor Proficency
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/armor-proficiency-heavy
PS: I am aware outsiders get martial weapon proficiency.
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The Share Training (Ex) class feature of the Eldritch Guardian (EG) states that the familiar can use all combat feats the EG can use.
Does that include weapon proficiencies?
I ask, as it would seem very silly to have to take a feat that provides a benefit I already have.
Relevant links.
EG Archtype
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fig hter-archetypes/eldritch-guardian-fighter-archetype
Fighter
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter
Martial Weapon Proficiency
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/martial-weapon-proficiency---fin al
Heavy Armor Proficency
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/armor-proficiency-heavyPS: I am aware outsiders get martial weapon proficiency.
Weapon proficiencies gained from a class are not feats, thus are not shared.
FAQ
Weapon proficiencies gained from a class are not feats, thus are not shared.
Meaning in order to grant, say, an air elemental proficiency with a longbow, I would have to take the feat? Can I even take the feat?
EDIT: Also, I beg to differ. Heavy Armor training specifically states that the fighter and the paladin have it as a bonus feat.
It is somewhat inconsistent whether the game treats it as "you get the proficiencies as feats automatically" or "you have the proficiencies, but they're class features, not feats". I would be inclined towards the former, generally because there isn't much giving a familiar proficiency can do to break it.
Reminder that just because an animal is trained in a weapon and physically capable of wielding it doesn't mean that they are at all inclined to: they would almost exclusively prefer their natural weapons.
It is somewhat inconsistent whether the game treats it as "you get the proficiencies as feats automatically" or "you have the proficiencies, but they're class features, not feats". I would be inclined towards the former, generally because there isn't much giving a familiar proficiency can do to break it.
Reminder that just because an animal is trained in a weapon and physically capable of wielding it doesn't mean that they are at all inclined to: they would almost exclusively prefer their natural weapons.
I am aware of the ambivalence in the rules. However, one would assume a creature with the intelligence of a familiar would be more inclined to see the benefits =)
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Weapon proficiencies gained from a class are not feats, thus are not shared.Meaning in order to grant, say, an air elemental proficiency with a longbow, I would have to take the feat? Can I even take the feat?
EDIT: Also, I beg to differ. Heavy Armor training specifically states that the fighter and the paladin have it as a bonus feat.
Read my post again. It has a link to a FAQ that begs to differ with your difference begging.
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It is somewhat inconsistent whether the game treats it as "you get the proficiencies as feats automatically" or "you have the proficiencies, but they're class features, not feats". I would be inclined towards the former, generally because there isn't much giving a familiar proficiency can do to break it.
Reminder that just because an animal is trained in a weapon and physically capable of wielding it doesn't mean that they are at all inclined to: they would almost exclusively prefer their natural weapons.
For your final point... that only holds true for non-sentient animals.
Read my post again. It has a link to a FAQ that begs to differ with your difference begging.
Weapon proficiencies gained from a class are not feats, thus are not shared.Meaning in order to grant, say, an air elemental proficiency with a longbow, I would have to take the feat? Can I even take the feat?
EDIT: Also, I beg to differ. Heavy Armor training specifically states that the fighter and the paladin have it as a bonus feat.
(Nice word play =])
I see. Slightly annoying that they contradict themselves so often. 'twould seem the point of the rules faq is to prevent abuse of the bonus feat retraining rules, but it also prevents the sharing of proficiencies. I most definitely see your point.|
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Read my post again. It has a link to a FAQ that begs to differ with your difference begging.
Weapon proficiencies gained from a class are not feats, thus are not shared.Meaning in order to grant, say, an air elemental proficiency with a longbow, I would have to take the feat? Can I even take the feat?
EDIT: Also, I beg to differ. Heavy Armor training specifically states that the fighter and the paladin have it as a bonus feat.
(Nice word play =])
I see. Slightly annoying that they contradict themselves so often. 'twould seem the point of the rules faq is to prevent abuse of the bonus feat retraining rules, but it also prevents the sharing of proficiencies. I most definitely see your point.
(Thanks, I try. ^.^)
Yah, it is annoying. But I'm not really surprised that they chose to go that route..
(Thanks, I try. ^.^)
Yah, it is annoying. But I'm not really surprised that they chose to go that route..
.... reading the faq..... they've made another ruling, the one two down, about which feats you can replace with the retraining, that makes the ruling you linked obsolete, as it also prevents what they are trying to prevent without being inconsistent otherwise....
Man, this is f****d
And that FAQ is about armor proficiency and not weapon proficiency, so...
And that FAQ is about armor proficiency and not weapon proficiency, so...
And your point is?
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And that FAQ is about armor proficiency and not weapon proficiency, so...
Nothing in the books says that weapon proficiency gained from class is a feat. Only the armor feats give text that say that... and the FAQ clarifies that it isn't supposed to give feats, just the proficiency. Thus only the armor portion needed a FAQ to correct the issue. So...
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.
Special: All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards automatically have Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
As a bit of an aside, I'm assuming you're taking the mauler archetype on your familiar? Something to keep in mind is that maulers stay at 6 Int, so while it's definitely more intelligent than an animal, it's still not quite on the level of an average adult human. This means a lesser likelihood of it actually using most weapons... although I'm still a fan of the idea of a Dex-based kobold fighter with a pet wallaby that shares knowledge of how to use tail attachments via Tail Terror.
Another thing I'd think about is taking a 1 level dip into beast-bonded witch. Due to fighters' abundance of feats, you might have room to give up a couple of them to grant the familiar some non-combat feats (such as Stable Gallop or Familiar Focus). In addition, you'll be getting access to some decent spells that could benefit the familiar such as enlarge person, long arm, mage armor, and celestial/infernal healing, as well as some minor utility spells. And since a patron does nothing for a 1st level witch, you could take the patron familiar option to grant a little more utility to your familiar. And of course you can also nab a low-level hex, which is always useful.
Since I'm in the topic anyway I'd like to use the opportunity to ask a related question. Say I take the eldritch guardian archetype and use a familiar that can use a weapon for which I have Weapon Proficiency or a similar feat (such as Tail Terror), then take the Advanced Weapon Training feat to take Focused Weapon. Can my familiar benefit from it using my fighter levels, or is it unable to benefit because of not having any fighter levels of its own?
Your familiar uses its own fighter levels to determine what effective warpriest level it bases the damage on.
Needless to say, this is likely "zero".
Your familiar uses its own fighter levels to determine what effective warpriest level it bases the damage on.
Needless to say, this is likely "zero".
It's hard to tell if that was the design intention. It also depends on how you interpret these rules.
"For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher. ""Character level is the sum of all of the levels possessed by a character in all of his classes."
I, personally, don't think "number of hit dice" is necessarily synonymous with "where those hit dice come from".
The familiar cares about the sum, but not how you got to the sum.
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Your familiar uses its own fighter levels to determine what effective warpriest level it bases the damage on.
Needless to say, this is likely "zero".
You get half points for this answer. You are correct that it might not work... but not why.
Share Training (Ex)
At 2nd level, when the familiar can see and hear its master, it can use any combat feat possessed by the eldritch guardian. The familiar doesn't have to meet the feat's prerequisites, but at the GM's discretion may be precluded from using certain combat feats due to its physical form. For example, an eldritch guardian's pig familiar with access to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) would not gain the ability to use spiked chains, since it doesn't have any limbs capable of properly handling them.
This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.
Now, Advanced Weapon Training needs you to have the weapon training class feature. But the familiar bypasses this, allowing them to take benefit from the feat.
But the benefit of the feat references the weapon training class feature for selecting which weapons gain the benefit. Without the CF, no benefit.This can possibly be skipped if the GM rules that the familiar does not get a bonus feat, but instead gains the feat exactly as you have selected(which is more than reasonable... and is probably RAI if not specifically RAW).
it can use any combat feat possessed by the eldritch guardian.
The feat the master selected and is sharing already has the variables filled in. So, the weapon training CF would be the masters CF... what weapon is selected for the feat was selected when the master took the feat. As well as the fighter level variable being filled in. Thus, the feat would work.
Your familiar uses its own fighter levels to determine what effective warpriest level it bases the damage on.
Needless to say, this is likely "zero".
You get half points for this answer. You are correct that it might not work... but not why.
Share Training (Ex)
At 2nd level, when the familiar can see and hear its master, it can use any combat feat possessed by the eldritch guardian. The familiar doesn't have to meet the feat's prerequisites, but at the GM's discretion may be precluded from using certain combat feats due to its physical form. For example, an eldritch guardian's pig familiar with access to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) would not gain the ability to use spiked chains, since it doesn't have any limbs capable of properly handling them.
This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.
Now, Advanced Weapon Training needs you to have the weapon training class feature. But the familiar bypasses this, allowing them to take benefit from the feat.
But the benefit of the feat references the weapon training class feature for selecting which weapons gain the benefit. Without the CF, no benefit.This can possibly be skipped if the GM rules that the familiar does not get a bonus feat, but instead gains the feat exactly as you have selected(which is more than reasonable... and is probably RAI if not specifically RAW).
it can use any combat feat possessed by the eldritch guardian.The feat the master selected and is sharing already has the variables filled in. So, the weapon training CF would be the masters CF... what weapon is selected for the feat was selected when the master took the feat. As well as the fighter level variable being filled in. Thus, the feat would work.
So the short of it is, it depends on if the GM judges that my familiar gets my combat feats as bonus feats, or simply uses my combat feats. It's possible and even reasonable, but not something I should bank on. I can live with that.
That however brings about some other limitations. For example, Startoss Style would be rendered much weaker in a familiar since it doesn't actually possess the other Startoss feats (or Vital Strike feats for that matter), so it'd only be adding +2 damage and wouldn't be allowed to use VS feats. However, this would be perfectly fine using the "familiar gets these as bonus feats" definition. Of course there's the matter of getting the familiar a returning weapon and making sure it's one with limbs that could realistically be used to throw one.
Basically, if I'm really dedicated to making an eldritch fighter, I should be prepared to have two builds on hand, at least, depending on how the GM decides the combat feat sharing functions.
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Just make sure you ask your GM how he views it... but have a backup that is based on the strictest possible view of RAW.
But, any which way it works out Startoss style will still give you full credit for having each feat. Whether they are treated like bonus feats or carbon copied from your stat sheet either the familiar will still be treated as if they have each feat you have.
Some advice from one who has traveled down that avenue though... trying to get a familiar that throws will give you a headache. If you're going melee, use a reach weapon. If you are going ranged, a bow is better than throwing.