I know that Opportune Parry and Riposte basically allows you to use your attack as AC and once a round strike back. The limit of once a round is because it uses an immediate action to Riposte.
I'm wondering how critical it is to start with Combat Reflexes?
What have people's experiences been with this deed and feat combination?
Shouldn't that be mostly untouchable until they run out of panache?
The way I read the deed, each use costs 1 panache as well as one attack of opportunity. I don't think you can score a critical on the parry, so it seems like you would quickly run out of panache in battles with multiple uses per round.
Very.
Mostly due to the fortuitous weapon property. AKA- the "give any AoO centered build a mini full attack outside of their turn" property.
Once per round, it lets you get another AoO in on the same AoO drawing action. It is at BAB-5, which gives you a Full BAB attack and a BAB-5 attack (ie- similar to the first two iteratives).
The catch here is that this second attack is an AoO itself. So you need at least 2 AoOs to use it.
There are other considerations for getting combat reflexes, of course. Using up your AoO on a melee enemy means that the mage can cast a spell in your face without any worries.
And honestly? ....getting more AoOs is just about the only dex advantage that the class itself doesn't already cover (reflex is your good save, you have good AC between the scaling bonus and going sword and board with a buckler, and the class gives you initiative bonuses). It is the class everyone wants to make purely dex, but it is the class that needs pure dex the least. It is only 'dex friendly', not 'dex reliant'. You can make a perfectly find strength swashbuckler.
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Shouldn't that be mostly untouchable until they run out of panache?
Parry doesn't require panache, it requires an AoO.
Edit: I appear to have been misinformed or not have heard of an errata. Referencing now.
Double Edit: Well, I'm going to have to remember that errata now on, as Swashbucklers just got dropped down in effectiveness quite a bit.
Shouldn't that be mostly untouchable until they run out of panache?Parry doesn't require panache, it requires an AoO.
Edit: I appear to have been misinformed or not have heard of an errata. Referencing now.
Double Edit: Well, I'm going to have to remember that errata now on, as Swashbucklers just got dropped down in effectiveness quite a bit.
Was that an errata? I had thought that was switched during the test for the class (where it is VERY legitimate to reduce effectiveness when it makes a class 'untouchable') The book's actual errata PDF at least doesn't seem to include it.
Unless you are talking about how the cost for parry/riposte can't be reduced by signature deed and such. While true, most of the cost reducing methods I know of are more of a mid game thing. So even if that errata didn't exist, there would still be concerns about running out during play for the first 10 levels.
I hadn't known about the panache cost until I started researching the class in order to build a swashbuckler myself. Originally I was under the ver mistaken impression it was just the riposte that cost panache. It was also around this time I realized that there was a limit on the number of ripostes you can do in a round because of the immediate action.
This whole discussion is part of my trying to decide if I change my first level feat to Combat Reflexes or not on the swashbuckler I've recently started up, Kegan the Chaotic.
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One of the reasons Combat Reflexes is so useful is that the more attacks you make, the more chances for a critical and thus more panache. For a very cheap investment you can get a significant number of extra attacks, especially at mid levels when you can UMD wands of longarm, swordmasters flair (blue scarf), etc to increase their reach and increase the AoOs they get.
Is it vital at level 1? No, I'd say, feel free to switch it up, but you definitely want it by 5th at the very latest I would think. If you plan on making the most of the class at any rate.
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I will go against the grain and play devils advocate here. Combat reflexes is OK it can be great with reach and some extras to build it up. Fortuitous weapon can make it worth it. Even this is a feat and enchantment for 1 extra attack at -5 and only if the enemy makes a mistake.
Here are my problems. Enemies adapt to it quickly. Moving out of your threatened area, attacking other people etc. Most multi round fights in pf become rounds of full attacks when this happens there are very few aoo generated. Next, you use panache whether you parry, or parry and repose but you can only repose once per round. So, without the extra attacks you burn through to many panache. Parry repose is most efficent once per round.
Ask yourself the way you play how many times a game do you have a second aoo provoked in one round?
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A Blue Scarf swordmasters flair makes every swashbuckler weapon a reach weapon, which makes combat reflexes valuable without even using parries.
This is a huge help. Like everything with combat reflexes it's about playing to the ability to get as much out of it. I think it's a feat that requires strategic play unlike simpler feats where you get the full benefit just by by having them.
I have defiantly seen people carry two of these so daily use is less of an issue. I find these are best activated first round if you wait until later you may not have the swift action to activate them. That is, if you are parrying a lot.
Sounds like there is a general agreement that Combat Reflexes is always useful to a swashbuckler, but not needed at first level.
I will have to keep the Blue Scarf flair in mind for higher level.
Yeah, it is "you need it, but just wait to grab it after you have the money to buy all the stuff that makes it great".
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Yeah, it is "you need it, but just wait to grab it after you have the money to buy all the stuff that makes it great".
Not just the scarf, but also a few Plumes of Panache so that the panache cost is somewhat less of an issue. (Getting 3-4 is pretty sweet. Just replace them between encounters and remember never to have it be the first panache you use in a fight so that you always have at least 1 point which can be replenished on a crit/kill.)
But yes - I agree with the consensus. The first thing to spend feats on is to go for (assuming a Dex Swashbuckler) Dex to Damage.
The first thing to spend feats on is to go for (assuming a Dex Swashbuckler) Dex to Damage.
Not even on my list of potential feats for my Swashbuckler.
Iron Will, Steadfast Personality, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus and Blind Fight are all on the list. I will have to see how it goes, but I don't anticipate going for an Agile Weapon enchantment either.
Currently, I've put Blind Fight on them for their 1st level feat. In my experience, getting denied Dex to AC is really bad on a Dex focused character.
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Power Attack is pretty weak for a Swashbuckler, especially in comparison to Dex for Damage.
1. It requires a 13 STR, meaning that it costing both a feat & stat points.
2. It lowers your defenses because it lowers the effectiveness of Opportune Parry.
3. Since you don't two-hand your weapon, you only get a 2:1 ratio for PA, which is only ever of situational DPR benefit.
4. Dex to Damage should increase your damage by 2-3 points at least when you first get it (even with a STR of 13 or 14/DEX of 18) and the benefit will only increase as you level further since stat-ups from leveling & gear, making it increase your damage approx. as much without the accuracy penalty or additional costs.
Generally PA is only really good if you are two-handing, and Swashbuckler both basically cannot two-hand and be effective, but they have additional minuses to it.
I may never take Power Attack. That was on the list but not high priority -- more like if I find that I'm a little lacking in the damage department. It certainly would not happen until 5th or 6th level when I find you start needing a bit more DPR. Your experiences may be different.
That said, the character in question currently has the prerequisite strength. I put it there so as to avoid problems with carrying capacity. Was between that and Wisdom, and this character is going to be a bit too impetuous for a wisdom bonus.
I may never take Power Attack. That was on the list but not high priority -- more like if I find that I'm a little lacking in the damage department. It certainly would not happen until 5th or 6th level when I find you start needing a bit more DPR. Your experiences may be different.
That said, the character in question currently has the prerequisite strength. I put it there so as to avoid problems with carrying capacity. Was between that and Wisdom, and this character is going to be a bit too impetuous for a wisdom bonus.
Well, from what I've seen from a quick glance at the numbers, a swashbuckler's attack with power attack/piranha strike is supposed to be on par with a full martial character using a 2 handed weapon with power attack.
As in, the precise strike largely serves to make up for the damage loss on extra 1/2 stat/power attack damage from going one handed. This thus leaves your hand open for a shield, which generally brings you ahead of the 2 hander just from getting better AC.
So...yeah. You aren't wrong there. I might advise two things:
1. Piranha strike over power attack. Because dex based. Unless you are doing a str swashbuckler, which is valid (As I mentioned...the class softens the need for dex builds; so this is more about getting some more numbers in areas you are good at vs. saving a bunch of feats; str builds also have the advantage of abandoning precise strike to 2 hand for similar damage if you find enemies cancel out precision damage, such as elementals or miss chances).
2. If you are going for a dex build, dex to damage gives you more early on. It gives +3 or +4 damage (or +2 or +3 if you are getting 13 str...) without attack penalties. Heck, the weapon focus of most dex to damage methods puts you +2 attack ahead of the power attack build at first. The regular damage boosters give you much more later on, but this is really attractive early on.
Other debate points: Yes, I realize power attack is not great for parry/riposte. That is the choice you have to make. Going without power attack to get more reliable ripostes, or going with power attack for better general damage. There is plenty of room for debate, I will simply say this: You can choose not to turn on power attack, so having the option isn't necessarily bad.
And while there are plenty of advantages to better accuracy... relying on 'reactive' attacks for your damage just further encourages enemies not to attack you. So you end up with a crane wing/turtled monk problem.
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Piranha strike is completely inferior to power attack, the only reason to take it is if you lack a 13 Str. It can only be used with light weapons, which means no rapier or scimitar. It also prevents you from ever two handing if it might be better, such as against a creature immune to precision damage.
Shouldn't that be mostly untouchable until they run out of panache?Parry doesn't require panache, it requires an AoO.
Edit: I appear to have been misinformed or not have heard of an errata. Referencing now.
Double Edit: Well, I'm going to have to remember that errata now on, as Swashbucklers just got dropped down in effectiveness quite a bit.
That's...I'm pretty sure the printing I have says at least 1 in pool, spend 1 to riposte. When did they reverse this?
And you still have to spend it before you know the result? Think we'll keep it the way it was.
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That's...I'm pretty sure the printing I have says at least 1 in pool, spend 1 to riposte. When did they reverse this?
And you still have to spend it before you know the result? Think we'll keep it the way it was.
They didn't. They removed the ability to reduce the cost to zero, which is how a lot of swashbucklers at my tables have been getting by for as long as I've seen them. They may just have been using panache like no ones business, but I wouldn't have known better until now.
I'll check my book when I get home. I've been playing 2 different swashbuckler characters since that book came out, and have been asked about that repeatedly. I've never taken a feat to lower the cost.
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I've been playing a swashbuckler since 1st printing and just checked my 1st printing to be sure: it always cost 1 panache to parry (there might have been one of the playtest versions that was set up differently).
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They didn't. They removed the ability to reduce the cost to zero, which is how a lot of swashbucklers at my tables have been getting by for as long as I've seen them. They may just have been using panache like no ones business, but I wouldn't have known better until now.That's...I'm pretty sure the printing I have says at least 1 in pool, spend 1 to riposte. When did they reverse this?
And you still have to spend it before you know the result? Think we'll keep it the way it was.
Entirely likely. Swashbuckler is built to run through panache and regain it at an insane rate. Even just using the riposte gives you a 30% chance of recouping the costs of the parry as long as you are level 5, and that is without the chance to kill the opponents. Out of the early levels, most full attacks would likely give you 1 point back.
And honestly, since most of the deeds are 'meh', you are mostly just spending points on the parry/riposte.
I've been playing a swashbuckler since 1st printing and just checked my 1st printing to be sure: it always cost 1 panache to parry (there might have been one of the playtest versions that was set up differently).
Yep. I checked it, and you're right, that language is in there (the printed book). I dunno how I and my group have missed that this entire time, but, my GM will be happier now I'll be parrying less.
Both playtest docs have the same language, even...