I literally don't think that's possible. Wild shape as an at-will ability at first level, even if you restrict it to a single form (say, a pangolin) which is useless for combat, means that any character can become what amounts to a were-pangolin by dipping a single level of druid. One design decision that Paizo has been fairly upfront about and fairly consistent about is not front-loading all the goodies into the first few levels of a class to discourage multiclassing. As such, this much of a dip-friendly class is inherently unbalanced.
The alchemist archetype Metamorph allows shapechange from level 1, but only 1/day and equivalent to alter self. And it gives up a lot for that. I don't see what all to give up for beast shape I at will...
Well, "obviously," you would need to weaken the ability from beast shape I. I don't know of any generally useful third-level spell that it wouldn't be overpowering for a first level character to cast, even once per day. (At-will would be ludicrous, of course.)
I suggested above only allowing a single noncombat form. But I consider that to still be unbalancingly powerful. Even disguise self at will would probably be too powerful.
|
If I had my way, I'd redesign the druid class with three specializations. At 1st level, you choose between:
- An animal companion (with a few additional buffs as the druid levels up)
- Two domains (from the list normally available to druids)
- Wild Shape (at-will)
To properly balance Wild Shape, I'd put a limit on it at lower levels. At 1st level, you can only turn into small and medium animals that don't have special movement modes. At 4th level, this restriction is removed.
Maybe at 10th level you can choose one of the other options, then at 20th level, the capstone ability is to get the last one so you have all three.
Thoughts?
Wild Shape (at-will) To properly balance Wild Shape, I'd put a limit on it at lower levels. At 1st level, you can only turn into small and medium animals that don't have special movement modes. At 4th level, this restriction is removed.
Still, IMHO, way too powerful to be balanced. A first level character with 50 foot movement speed, scent, and an automatic trip ability any time she enters combat? That's a superb skirmisher and it only requires one form (wolf). The druid is also a near perfect observer/spy with the ability to turn into any number of domestic animals (goat, sheep, pig, dog) and to become more or less invisible. Simply by picking your form right, you can become better at combat maneuvers than the monk or brawler,....
... and it's available from a single one-level dip. So now my wizard/druid can buff herself and her senses to her heart's content and then shapeshift so no one knows she's observing everything. My monk/druid can use unarmed combat or her own natural attacks as she sees fit. My rogue/druid has a form (deinonychus) giving her four natural attacks and sneak attack damage on all of them, turning her into a veritable food processor. (Whirrrrrrrrrr!) My barbarian/druid does the same for pounce. A one-level druid dip will become almost a no-brainer decision for any character of any class.
Anyone remember the Shapeshift alternate class feature from Players Handbook II? I've used it a couple times. It's pretty cool, and has some balancing drawbacks to it.
It shifts you into a form with movement speed and strength bonuses, similar to Barbarian Rage, but you don't gain any benefits of the animal form except for a natural attack. As you level, your Strength bonus grows, you gain a few cool bonuses like bonus feats while shaped, etc.
What you give up though is the ability to cast while shaped even with the Natural Spell feat, Wild armor, and an animal companion. You were also required to have decent physical ability scores since you only got a strength bonus but not the ability scores of the animal you were shaped as.
|
|
Still, IMHO, way too powerful to be balanced. A first level character with 50 foot movement speed, scent, and an automatic trip ability any time she enters combat? That's a superb skirmisher and it only requires one form (wolf).
How is this more powerful than a regular druid just picking a wolf as her animal companion at 1st level? Isn't that actually more powerful, since you get all the awesomeness of a wolf plus all the perks of being a full druid on top of the action economy of having basically two characters?
The druid is also a near perfect observer/spy with the ability to turn into any number of domestic animals (goat, sheep, pig, dog) and to become more or less invisible. Simply by picking your form right, you can become better at combat maneuvers than the monk or brawler,....
Again, a 1st level druid can do all of this right now and it doesn't even cost them their action each round (they just make their animal companion do it).
... and it's available from a single one-level dip. So now my wizard/druid can buff herself and her senses to her heart's content and then shapeshift so no one knows she's observing everything. My monk/druid can use unarmed combat or her own natural attacks as she sees fit. My rogue/druid has a form (deinonychus) giving her four natural attacks and sneak attack damage on all of them, turning her into a veritable food processor. (Whirrrrrrrrrr!)
Sure, all of this seems really powerful in the 2-6 level range, but after that it kind of evaporates. I don't think a 13th level wizard is going to take a 1-level dip into druid, sacrificing a caster level, to pick up an ability he got at 5th level with a 3rd level spell? Or that a 9th level fighter is going to put away his +3 adamantine greatsword so he can get a sweet grab attack in wolf form? Or that a 10th level monk is going to forego four attacks at 1d10 damage so he can get a single 1d6 bite attack?
A one-level druid dip will become almost a no-brainer decision for any character of any class.
Full disclosure: I'm a min-maxing power-gamer, and there are actually very few builds that would justify a 1-level dip just to pick up at-will small or medium, non-flying shapeshift. Maybe there are a few really, really gimmicky low-level builds you could make (like a sneak-attacking dinosaur), but most of them are either silly or actually kind of gimped. Honestly, you just give up way too much for an ability that's situational at best. You do much better damage with almost any basic martial build with a two-handed weapon, losing your thumbs eliminates most skill use, and not many casters have a spare feat (and Wisdom 13) to pick up Natural Spell.
|
|
Let me put this another way. Right now, using all the rules as-written, I could roll up the following character:
A strinx druid with a wolf companion, which gives me unlimited flight at 1st level (60ft speed), superior action economy with an animal companion and spontaneous summons, full 9-level spellcasting, and a grab attack.
What I'm hearing is that trading in the wolf companion to be able to turn into a wolf at-will is broken. So... turning off flight, not being able to cast spells (without another feat), losing the second character (animal companion), and having to go into melee myself, instead of just sending my replaceable companion, is broken? That doesn't make sense to me.
The problem with balancing wildshape is that
1. Turning into any animal is immensely useful for multiple reasons. It's basically like a swiss army knife except YOU become the tool.
2. Turning into an animal is not a 1st level ability. The fact that the druid can do it before 5th level at a duration of 1 hour per level is already fairly strong. A large part of the what balances it is that druid can't just turn into any animal whenever they want.
3. Beast shape can replicate many good abilities and spells. And making such abilities at-will at 1st level becomes incredibly problematic.
Just the last two points makes wildshape difficult to balance as a 1st level ability, yet alone an at-will ability. To accomplish that, you would have to have a very strict limit on what abilities and forms you can assume using beast shape. For example, making you have to choose which forms you can take at the start of the day or saying you can't use the ability to gain a fly speed until 8th level.
I honestly like the fact you can't wildshape at-will. I like that ability is once per day but has a very long duration. It forces you to commit to your transformation without trapping you in the form and makes you carefully consider what form is ideal for the day's adventure. This commitment makes the forms you take more engaging. If wildshape can be done at-will without any commitment, then the shapeshifting is basically just a combat buff that lets you solve a large array of challenges without any preparation, investment, or effort.
|
|
The problem with balancing wildshape is that
1. Turning into any animal is immensely useful for multiple reasons. It's basically like a swiss army knife except YOU become the tool.
What if you only got to choose one form at 1st level, plus a new form every level (or two) after that?
2. Turning into an animal is not a 1st level ability. The fact that the druid can do it before 5th level at a duration of 1 hour per level is already fairly strong. A large part of the what balances it is that druid can't just turn into any animal whenever they want.
Meh, disagree. Lots of classes have more powerful abilities at earlier levels, plus almost all arcane and divine spellcasters can mimic a druid's wild shape (other than the duration) at 5-6th level anyway.
3. Beast shape can replicate many good abilities and spells. And making such abilities at-will at 1st level becomes incredibly problematic.
On a side note, it's interesting that you said almost the same thing (wild shape is too powerful/versatile) three times and tried to make a list out of it. In response:
1. It's not a very good way to present an argument.
2. There are better ways to argue your points.
3. This method of presenting your arguments isn't very effective.
Ha, okay, back on topic:
For example, making you have to choose which forms you can take at the start of the day or saying you can't use the ability to gain a fly speed until 8th level.
Hey, those are great ideas! Not sure on limiting flight until 8th level, though... that's actually kind of late compared to when other classes (and some races) get it. Love these ideas!
I like that ability is once per day but has a very long duration.
Personally, I despise "per day" abilities. "Here's what your class was designed to do, what the whole class fantasy is based on, but you only get to do it once a day, so choose wisely!" That's lazy design, in my opinion. It's why you end every game of Skyrim or Final Fantasy with an inventory full of super potions. "Is now the right time to use my special ability? What if there's a bigger monster in the next room?" I hate how Pathfinder has slowly moved in that direction with stuff like grit, panache, luck, martial flexibility, bane... it's just game design shorthand. "Okay, we made this sweet class-defining ability... how do we balance it? Triggers, toggles, conditions? Ahh, screw it, just make it x/day and let's go to lunch."
It forces you to commit to your transformation without trapping you in the form and makes you carefully consider what form is ideal for the day's adventure. This commitment makes the forms you take more engaging. If wildshape can be done at-will without any commitment, then the shapeshifting is basically just a combat buff that lets you solve a large array of challenges without any preparation, investment, or effort.
I disagree that committing to a wild shape form is a positive feature in a class that's designed to be versatile. Wild shape is supposed to be a toolbox where you're turning into a dolphin to swim one minute, a hawk to fly the next, and a wolf to fight later on in the adventure.
Have it give up spellcasting and nature bond, I guess.
What if you only got to choose one form at 1st level, plus a new form every level (or two) after that?The problem with balancing wildshape is that
1. Turning into any animal is immensely useful for multiple reasons. It's basically like a swiss army knife except YOU become the tool.
Giving more forms as you level up would be cool. I'm working on a shapeshifter class that works that way.
2. Turning into an animal is not a 1st level ability. The fact that the druid can do it before 5th level at a duration of 1 hour per level is already fairly strong. A large part of the what balances it is that druid can't just turn into any animal whenever they want.Meh, disagree. Lots of classes have more powerful abilities at earlier levels, plus almost all arcane and divine spellcasters can mimic a druid's wild shape (other than the duration) at 5-6th level anyway.
Spells form a benchmark for power level based on character level in this game. You're wanting to make a 1st level at-will ability that mimics the effect of a once-per-day 5th level spell ability that lasts minutes-per-level.
Not sure on limiting flight until 8th level, though... that's actually kind of late compared to when other classes (and some races) get it. Love these ideas!
Longterm flight is an 8th-9th level ability (overland flight, class abilities like sorcerer bloodlines, etc) whereas flight measured in minutes is a 5th-6th level ability (fly spell, beast shape i, flight hex, alchemist wings, etc).
On that note, referencing builds using monstrous races or combinations of character options from the Player Companion books does not help an argument concerning power balance.
I like that ability is once per day but has a very long duration.Personally, I despise "per day" abilities. "Here's what your class was designed to do, what the whole class fantasy is based on, but you only get to do it once a day, so choose wisely!" That's lazy design, in my opinion. It's why you end every game of Skyrim or Final Fantasy with an inventory full of super potions. "Is now the right time to use my special ability? What if there's a bigger monster in the next room?" I hate how Pathfinder has slowly moved in that direction with stuff like grit, panache, luck, martial flexibility, bane... it's just game design shorthand. "Okay, we made this sweet class-defining ability... how do we balance it? Triggers, toggles, conditions? Ahh, screw it, just make it x/day and let's go to lunch.
I agree that "per day" ability paradigm can be tiresome, but I do think Pathfinder has done some good work to try to push out of that paradigm. Grit/panache are dynamic resource systems as opposed to the static resource systems of arcane pool, ki, and daily abilities. I think taking a different approach from the once-per-day paradigm is fine, but you will be limited if it's flatout an at-will ability. I do have some suggestions though.
It forces you to commit to your transformation without trapping you in the form and makes you carefully consider what form is ideal for the day's adventure. This commitment makes the forms you take more engaging. If wildshape can be done at-will without any commitment, then the shapeshifting is basically just a combat buff that lets you solve a large array of challenges without any preparation, investment, or effort.I disagree that committing to a wild shape form is a positive feature in a class that's designed to be versatile. Wild shape is supposed to be a toolbox where you're turning into a dolphin to swim one minute, a hawk to fly the next, and a wolf to fight later on in the adventure.
That's not how wildshape is supposed to work. Even in most fiction, shapeshifting has a lot of restrictions that prevents a character from being whatever they want, whenever they want. Also, if an ability is too versatile, not only does it make it unbalanced but also it makes the ability less fun for the player, his teammates, and the GM.
|
|
if an ability is too versatile ... it makes the ability less fun for the player
I'm really struggling to figure out how you could possibly believe this. I challenge you to find a single other person on these forums willing to come here and say, with a straight face, "I don't like abilities that give my character too much versatility." :)
Okay, all that aside, I've heard some great points in this thread. Give me a second to write everything up and I'll show you my idea for an unchained druid class.
How would you tweak the druid class so that it gets at-will wild shape at 1st level? What would the class have to give up to make this work and be properly balanced?
There isn't enough for the class to give up to make this work in an even half way balanced measure.
|
|
Most class features and stats remain the same, except as follows:
Removed Class Features:
Nature Bond
Wild Shape
Added Class Features:
Nature's Gift: At 1st level, the druid chooses one of these three specializations:
- An animal companion from the usual list of choices available to druids. Additionally, at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, the druid may add +2 to any of her animal companion's ability scores.
- Two domains from the following list: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Healing, Plant, Travel, Vermin, Water, or Weather, including animal and terrain domains.
- Wild Shape with the following restrictions: The druid gains the ability to wild shape at-will, though she only has access to one animal form at 1st level. At 2nd level and every level thereafter, she may add another animal form to her list of those available. At 7th level, she may choose a form with a fly speed, but not before. This ability otherwise advances as per the usual druid Wild Shape (tiny or large forms at 6th level, elemental at 8th, etc.)
Thoughts?
The Spheres of Power version of the Druid gets at-will shapeshifting at level 1 (although really, anyone using SoP can get at-will shapeshifting at level 1.) Of course, the SoP system dramatically changes how magic works, so it might not fit what you're looking for, but I'd recommend checking it out for inspiration at least.
Most class features and stats remain the same, except as follows:
Removed Class Features:
Nature Bond
Wild ShapeAdded Class Features:
Nature's Gift: At 1st level, the druid chooses one of these three specializations:
- An animal companion from the usual list of choices available to druids. Additionally, at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, the druid may add +2 to any of her animal companion's ability scores.
- Two domains from the following list: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Healing, Plant, Travel, Vermin, Water, or Weather, including animal and terrain domains.
- Wild Shape with the following restrictions: The druid gains the ability to wild shape at-will, though she only has access to one animal form at 1st level. At 2nd level and every level thereafter, she may add another animal form to her list of those available. At 7th level, she may choose a form with a fly speed, but not before.
Thoughts?
You're talking about gaining the power of a third level spell at will, at first level. And the only thing you're giving up (Wild Shape deoen't count since you're not giving it up), is nature bond.
|
|
You're talking about gaining the power of a third level spell at will, at first level. And the only thing you're giving up (Wild Shape deoen't count since you're not giving it up), is nature bond.
Sort of. You might want to read through it again. I think a lot of you are reading "at-will wild shape" and you're getting triggered. Let's read the whole thing, including the restrictions. :)
And for the rest of you who seem to think that shapeshifting is a game-breaking ability, I think some of you have a vastly different DM style/experience than I have.
At no point in my 30 years of gaming has this ever happened:
DM: "You arrive at the tower of Villainy. On the top floor is the McGuffin you were sent here to get for your quest. Before you stands the door to the first level."
Player: "I shapeshift into a bird, fly in through the top window, get the McGuffin, and return to the party."
DM: "Oh, snap, good move! Okay, everyone, adventure over. Let's watch a movie tonight instead."
Has this, or something like this, happened to you guys? If so, I argue that the problem isn't shapeshifting...
if an ability is too versatile ... it makes the ability less fun for the playerI'm really struggling to figure out how you could possibly believe this. I challenge you to find a single other person on these forums willing to come here and say, with a straight face, "I don't like abilities that give my character too much versatility." :)
Not to sound cynical, but players are usually the worst game designers. An ability that lets you solve many challenges with no preparation, effort, or investment will get dull very quickly. For all people at the table.
|
The only way I would allow at will wildshape to any form at first level is to trade nature bond and all spellcasting. Wild shape is one of the most versatile abilities in the game, useful for buffing stats, damage, scouting, and utility. Being able to do that at will is massive. Hell, at will alter self at 6th level on a urban Druid is bad enough.
|
|
The Spheres of Power version of the Druid gets at-will shapeshifting at level 1 (although really, anyone using SoP can get at-will shapeshifting at level 1.) Of course, the SoP system dramatically changes how magic works, so it might not fit what you're looking for, but I'd recommend checking it out for inspiration at least.
I've not had the chance to play in any games using SoP, but these boards are full of people raving about how great it is. Does at-will shapeshifting ruin a lot of games using SoP?
Not that anybody's mentioned. There's even a base class, the Shifter, that's specialized in shapeshifting. Of course, as I said before, using SoP changes the entire way spellcasting works, so a druid using this system wouldn't also have access to the same breadth of spells they get with the druid spell list. There's a Spheres of Power wiki you can check out for all the details, similar to d20pfsrd.
The Spheres of Power version of the Druid gets at-will shapeshifting at level 1 (although really, anyone using SoP can get at-will shapeshifting at level 1.) Of course, the SoP system dramatically changes how magic works, so it might not fit what you're looking for, but I'd recommend checking it out for inspiration at least.I've not had the chance to play in any games using SoP, but these boards are full of people raving about how great it is. Does at-will shapeshifting ruin a lot of games using SoP?
Everything I hear about Spheres of Power makes me suspect that it is as broken a mechanic as Paizo's Word system.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spheres of Power is surprisingly well done and balanced to some extent. And unlike Spheres of Power, it was actually playtested for more than a year. However, it is designed to totally replace the spellcasting in the game. It makes casters more powerful at earlier levels, but significantly weaker at later levels. While the wizard can gain a fly speed that has a concentration duration or a spell that lets them cast a limited haste, they don't gain the ability to totally wipe out encounters with a single spell. Also, it's rather easy for full martials to get spellcasting. The system balances itself by totally changing the paradigm in a way that makes casters have consistent power across all levels.
But even the Alteration sphere does a lot to keep polymorphing effects in check. It limits the number of traits you can have and you don't have immediate access to all forms. You also have to concentrate unless you spend a valuable resource. When you do spend a resource, the duration is minutes per level unless you're druid, who loses wildshape in exchange for increasing the duration to 10 minutes per level if they use the spell on themselves.