INT based oracle


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

FAQ
Sorcerer: Do the bonuses granted from Bloodline Arcana apply to all of the spells cast by the sorcerer, or just those cast from the sorcerer's spell list?

The Bloodline Arcana powers apply to all of the spells cast by characters of that bloodline, not just those cast using the sorcerer's spell slots.
General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)

sage bloodline arcana

Bloodline Arcana: Unlike most sorcerers, whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use your intellect to understand and master your mystic powers. You use your Intelligence, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, the save DCs of your spells, and the number of daily uses of your bloodline powers. You gain a +2 bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks.

multiclass into another caster and they become int for all cha things. INT oracle

yes?


I'd say no. Check the end of the first FAQ: "The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class"

Sage calls it out as Int for Sorcerer stuff only.


it says int for sorcerer stuff. as does basically everything in every class description ever, they always name the specific class. it doesn't say ONLY sorcerer spells. which is what the faq says it needs to say.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, and the save DC for your spells are not "spells" themselves.

Quote:
If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability.

The FAQ only mentions effects that apply to spells. AT BEST you might consider DC for spells relevant, but this is more a modification to a class feature than something applied to spells themselves.

do note that even though it says "If a class ability modifies your spellcasting" it doesn't say after that anything about spellcasting, only effects applied to spells.


Hmm very possibly right it's hard to judge exactly what it would and would not change. Good catch


It isn't even a chance of being a factor. The OP outright quoted the section that shuts this down:

vhok (bold added) wrote:
Bloodline Arcana: Unlike most sorcerers, whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use your intellect to understand and master your mystic powers. You use your Intelligence, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, the save DCs of your spells, and the number of daily uses of your bloodline powers. You gain a +2 bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks.

Your oracle spells are not a sorcerer class feature. They continue to use Charisma.

The ruling that bloodlines are general and separate from the class that grants them doesn't work when this bloodline explicitly specifies the class it works with.

Scarab Sages

Agree with the others.

Would be iffy for the Oracle to be INT based anyway, since some of the mysteries can boost INT. Lore, I think. Plus I recall an archetype that can give that revelation to other mysteries.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

There is a 3rd party feat called "Spell Finesse" that changes your casting stat for all spellcasting classes to your choice of any of the three mental ability scores. However, it does NOT change the key ability score for bloodline powers, revelations, or any other ability that is not a spell.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Saethori wrote:

It isn't even a chance of being a factor. The OP outright quoted the section that shuts this down:

vhok (bold added) wrote:
Bloodline Arcana: Unlike most sorcerers, whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use your intellect to understand and master your mystic powers. You use your Intelligence, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, the save DCs of your spells, and the number of daily uses of your bloodline powers. You gain a +2 bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks.

Your oracle spells are not a sorcerer class feature. They continue to use Charisma.

The ruling that bloodlines are general and separate from the class that grants them doesn't work when this bloodline explicitly specifies the class it works with.

I actually take this as poor reasoning since the Sorcerer is from the CRB and thus not written when pathfinder had truly codified their rules language. For all we know, they didn't intend for this to counter things that were written much later that let you grab bloodline arcana without being a sorcerer or something, or maybe it was, who knows.

I've posted why this doesn't work as the OP intends though.


Bandw2 wrote:

bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, and the save DC for your spells are not "spells" themselves.

Quote:
If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability.

The FAQ only mentions effects that apply to spells. AT BEST you might consider DC for spells relevant, but this is more a modification to a class feature than something applied to spells themselves.

do note that even though it says "If a class ability modifies your spellcasting" it doesn't say after that anything about spellcasting, only effects applied to spells.

Specific > General

The bloodline specifically states that it applies to sorcerer only.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Snowlilly wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, and the save DC for your spells are not "spells" themselves.

Quote:
If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability.

The FAQ only mentions effects that apply to spells. AT BEST you might consider DC for spells relevant, but this is more a modification to a class feature than something applied to spells themselves.

do note that even though it says "If a class ability modifies your spellcasting" it doesn't say after that anything about spellcasting, only effects applied to spells.

Specific > General

The bloodline specifically states that it applies to sorcerer only.

you're misusing that phrase in the context of pathfinder. This phrase is for when a general statement "attacking with a ranged weapon provokes AoO" when you have a feat that specifically allows you to not provoke. Specific beats general is used in the context of how certain things behave certain ways unless you have exception cases, and I don't really believe this falls in that territory.

beyond that, FAQs are more specific than normal rules. even so, this doesn't really apply here.

beyond that, as I have said, the wording of the CRB was printed before they had codified their grammar. using specific word cases from CRB language is just going to create problems.


Bandw2 wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, and the save DC for your spells are not "spells" themselves.

Quote:
If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability.

The FAQ only mentions effects that apply to spells. AT BEST you might consider DC for spells relevant, but this is more a modification to a class feature than something applied to spells themselves.

do note that even though it says "If a class ability modifies your spellcasting" it doesn't say after that anything about spellcasting, only effects applied to spells.

Specific > General

The bloodline specifically states that it applies to sorcerer only.

you're misusing that phrase in the context of pathfinder. This phrase is for when a general statement "attacking with a ranged weapon provokes AoO" when you have a feat that specifically allows you to not provoke. Specific beats general is used in the context of how certain things behave certain ways unless you have exception cases, and I don't really believe this falls in that territory.

beyond that, FAQs are more specific than normal rules. even so, this doesn't really apply here.

beyond that, as I have said, the wording of the CRB was printed before they had codified their grammar. using specific word cases from CRB language is just going to create problems.

I completely disagree, on both of your points.

Specific > General for all rules in Pathfinder

FAQs can be general or specific depending on wording. In this case, the FAQ is general to all bloodlines that do not specifically state otherwise.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Snowlilly wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, and the save DC for your spells are not "spells" themselves.

Quote:
If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability.

The FAQ only mentions effects that apply to spells. AT BEST you might consider DC for spells relevant, but this is more a modification to a class feature than something applied to spells themselves.

do note that even though it says "If a class ability modifies your spellcasting" it doesn't say after that anything about spellcasting, only effects applied to spells.

Specific > General

The bloodline specifically states that it applies to sorcerer only.

you're misusing that phrase in the context of pathfinder. This phrase is for when a general statement "attacking with a ranged weapon provokes AoO" when you have a feat that specifically allows you to not provoke. Specific beats general is used in the context of how certain things behave certain ways unless you have exception cases, and I don't really believe this falls in that territory.

beyond that, FAQs are more specific than normal rules. even so, this doesn't really apply here.

beyond that, as I have said, the wording of the CRB was printed before they had codified their grammar. using specific word cases from CRB language is just going to create problems.

I completely disagree, on both of your points.

Specific > General for all rules in Pathfinder

FAQs can be general or specific depending on wording. In this case, the FAQ is general to all bloodlines that do not specifically state otherwise.

I don't think you understand, specific > general 1, isn't a specific rule laid out anywhere in pathfinder. 2, is only related to exceptions to rules. it's a phrase to simply encapsulate that an outside force can change how something acts. For example this arcana is a specific rule changing the general sorcerer rules.

If you gained a feat that gave you bloodline arcana, would then this not allow you use of that arcana?

I'm more inclined to think this was written specifically to stop people from possibly using it on abilities other than spellcasting. also truthfully this probably was made an arcana so it couldn't be picked up with eldritched heritage.

but like i said, this doesn't affect your spells in anyway, and so specific versus general doesn't matter here, this bloodline arcana affects class features, not spells.

Quote:
Bloodline Arcana: Unlike most sorcerers, whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use your intellect to understand and master your mystic powers. You use your Intelligence, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, the save DCs of your spells, and the number of daily uses of your bloodline powers. You gain a +2 bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks.

beyond the point that grammatically speaking it says "class features" and "effects relating to your sorcerer class" as if they were 2 separate objects. It should really be typed as "You use your Intelligence, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features, and effects, relating to your sorcerer class", for it to correctly label both effects as being tied to sorcerer levels.

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:
beyond that, as I have said, the wording of the CRB was printed before they had codified their grammar. using specific word cases from CRB language is just going to create problems.

Check the Errata. If they intended to fix the wording in the CRB, it will be found in the errata for the CRB. They've updated it a few times and while sometimes lacking, the wording in the CRB is offically current.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
beyond that, as I have said, the wording of the CRB was printed before they had codified their grammar. using specific word cases from CRB language is just going to create problems.
Check the Errata. If they intended to fix the wording in the CRB, it will be found in the errata for the CRB. They've updated it a few times and while sometimes lacking, the wording in the CRB is offically current.

mounted combat says otherwise...

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
beyond that, as I have said, the wording of the CRB was printed before they had codified their grammar. using specific word cases from CRB language is just going to create problems.
Check the Errata. If they intended to fix the wording in the CRB, it will be found in the errata for the CRB. They've updated it a few times and while sometimes lacking, the wording in the CRB is offically current.
mounted combat says otherwise...

?

Are you just arguing counter-point? Mounted Combat has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Look, This is the rules section of the forum. Saying you want to ignore printed rules because you doubt the source, isn't a valid arguement here. I do agree that CRB has many instances of iffy wording, but as a rules question, the above issue regarding the Sorcerer's bloodline arcana is covered by exact wording both in the CRB and in the FAQ. This particular rules question isn't grey, it's black and white.

If you want advice regarding how to alter/balance the rules, we could ask a moderator to move the thread to the Advice section of the forum. Might get the answers you are seeking, there.

Could also start a new thread seeking clarity if the Bloodline in question is current or not.

I will note that the Sage Bloodline is not actually found in the CRB. It is a Wildblooded archetype for the Sorcerer found in Ultimate magic, so it's wording is, I believe, something that was written after the Oracle Class was added to the game.

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