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I'm pretty sure I know how this works, but there has been some argument at our table about it, so I figured I'd ask for more opinions. (Of note: I'm neither the Mesmerist nor the GM.)
At 1st level, whenever the enigma uses hypnotic stare on a creature, instead of applying a penalty on the creature's saving throws, the enigma begins to fade from the creature's view. Until the enigma's next turn, the enigma gains the effects of concealment against that creature (unless it can see invisible creatures). Starting on the enigma's next turn, he gains the effect of invisibility against that creature. These effects last as long as the enigma continues to use his hypnotic stare, but if he takes an action that would end invisibility, it ends his hypnotic stare immediately. The enigma can reinstate this effect whenever he wishes, but each time it begins with 1 round of concealment. At 8th level, attacks that would end invisibility do not end the enigma's hypnotic stare, and after 1 round of concealment, he gains the benefits of greater invisibility against the target of his stare.
For the purpose of bold stare improvements, the enigma's hypnotic stare always has a penalty of –1.
This ability alters hypnotic stare.
The way I read it - anything that can see invisible creatures (blindsight/true sight etc.) only negates the concealment the 1st turn rather than Solipsism as a whole. This is because Solipsism doesn't make them invisible, they gain "the effect of invisibility against that creature".
See Invisibility & Invisibility Purge wouldn't do anything against it, though Glitterdust and mundane ways to beat invisibility (white powder & smog pellets) would work normally since they just give an outline of the creature in question.
What do you guys think?
Frankly, I don't see the archetype as being very good itself either way (the player in question is very NOT an optimizer), though it seems to be an interesting dip for a rogue.
Blindsight ignores invisibility so it should work.
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Against blindsight, the effect of invisibility is negligible.Blindsight ignores invisibility so it should work.You mean that it should beat Solipsism? But Solipsism doesn't make you invisible in the first place, it gives you "the effect of invisibility against that creature", so I'm curious why you think that matters.
That's not what "effect" means.
Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can't see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.
Blindsight normally makes it so that invisibility has no effect. However, Solipsism doesn't make them invisible in the first place, it just gives the effect of invisibility.
Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See the invisibility special ability.
They are never invisible. They just gain the above effects as if they were.
Blindsight specifically negates invisibility, not the effects of invisibility.
I already know that this works.
I was only asking about the placement of "(unless it can see invisible creatures)" and how while I believe it only applies to the concealment, some might argue that it applies to the invisibility as well.
(Actually, that quote's very need for existence proves my point that Blindsight and the like would not normally beat Solipsism.)
We're going to have to agree to disagree. If I can ignore the effects of invisibility, which Blindsight allows then the ability should not work.
Blindsight allows you to ignore the effect of invisibility, which is total concealment.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree. If I can ignore the effects of invisibility, which Blindsight allows then the ability should not work.
Blindsight allows you to ignore the effect of invisibility, which is total concealment.
If Blindsight allowed you to ignore the effect of invisibility - I'd totally agree. But it doesn't. It makes invisibility irrelevant to them because it can see them - which is not the same thing, as proven by them still not being able to see ethereal creatures (who are still invisible to them).
*shrug* Maybe we should just FAQ it.
You're slowly making yourself invisible. Blindsense will roflcopter it.
I tend to think based on the fact it's the mesmerist and that its called solipsism that the ability is a mind affecting "you can't see me" that would not be vulnerable to blindsight.
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You're slowly making yourself invisible. Blindsense will roflcopter it.No - you're giving yourself the "effect of invisibility". Not the same thing.
It usually is. The game rarely splits hairs that fine.
I tend to think based on the fact it's the mesmerist and that its called solipsism that the ability is a mind affecting "you can't see me" that would not be vulnerable to blindsight.
i would think so too but creatures that can see invisibility can see it. Which heavily implies that it works like invisibility
What is the "effect of invisibility"?
What is the "effect of invisibility"?
50% miss chance? Inability to be seen, with the find/pinpoint rules?
I guess the difference is between bending light so that your eyes can't see and bending your mind so that your brain can't process what your eyes see. The latter could get around blindsight.
But I'm firmly of the belief that True Seeing penetrating phantasms is one of the worst FAQs ever released, so I'm biased in that direction.
That question was for Charon. I want to see what he will say.
If it wasn't invisibility they very easily could have called it concealment and total concealment.
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What is the "effect of invisibility"?50% miss chance? Inability to be seen, with the find/pinpoint rules?
I guess the difference is between bending light so that your eyes can't see and bending your mind so that your brain can't process what your eyes see. The latter could get around blindsight.
But I'm firmly of the belief that True Seeing penetrating phantasms is one of the worst FAQs ever released, so I'm biased in that direction.
1) Hypnotic Stare is (SU) and a psychic effect but I don't see anything that make it a mind affecting effect;
2) Even if it being a "mind bending effect", it give the effect of invisibility. The effect of invisibility is not being discernible by sight. End of the effect.
If you want a RAI for that, the mesmerist is capable to affect the part of the brain that process the target seeing capability, not other parts that process the abilities that process his other senses.
The mesmerist can be still located by sound, ecolocation, smell, etc.
If we use your interpretation the mesmerist is not only invisible, it is impossible to perceive him in any way.
At 1st level, whenever the enigma uses hypnotic stare on a creature, instead of applying a penalty on the creature's saving throws, the enigma begins to fade from the creature's view. Until the enigma's next turn, the enigma gains the effects of concealment against that creature (unless it can see invisible creatures). Starting on the enigma's next turn, he gains the effect of invisibility against that creature.
The part I bolded above indicates that being able to see invisible creatures negates the first round part of Solipsism. Although it doesn't say anything directly about Blindsight(*), and it doesn't say anything about the second and following rounds(**), for consistency this should work the same way.
(*)Blindsight bypasses both concealment and invisibility.
(**)It would be kind of strange if an ability that negated the comncealment provided by Solipsism did nothing against the invisibility provided by Solipsism.