I was dissatisfied with how eclectic Suishen's abilities are, and started considering having an Imperial Dragon either be the foe that inspired its creation or actively assist in its creation. Uqbarian has separately pointed out, rightly, that I need an Imperial Dragon, and the ones from Bestiary 3 just don't fit the bill.
Fortunately, the well-known source of all knowledge, Wikipedia, assures me that there are a lot more than five chinese dragons. In fact, there's apparently some reason to want nine of them -- which would amount to one for each alignment.
So now we have a Sun Dragon who could have crafted a weapon for Ameiko's family that grants its wielder Energy Resistance (Cold), Flight, and See Invisible. Flaming isn't exactly right, but it would certainly be a compatible weapon property. Said weapon would of course cast Light as soon as it was drawn. I'd actually love to give the weapon the ability to cast Daylight and Searing Light -- and I'm probably running with this further, since I want to do something like a legendary item or a weapon of legacy from 3rd ed.
But first, I'd like to know if my wiki-fu is at all credible. For those of you who actually know Chinese (and Japanese) mythology, would you add a Cloud Dragon and Sun Dragon to Pathfinder's list? Is my take on them close enough to the mythology? What other dragons would you add? Do you know of actual write-ups of additional Imperial Dragons?
Flaming might well get replaced at higher levels by Brilliant Energy. Not as good against White Dragons (and maybe the BBEG at the end, but I don't have that book yet). But utterly thematic.
Well, since Jade Regent is a lot about kami and oni, why not go old school 1E OA and go with shen lung, spirit dragon?
Water or cold based powers, dragon of storms and rain. I believe they were chaotic neutral.
Well, since Jade Regent is a lot about kami and oni, why not go old school 1E OA and go with shen lung, spirit dragon?
Water or cold based powers, dragon of storms and rain. I believe they were chaotic neutral.
Ooh, thanks! Would you believe that an imperial/noble family would turn to a Spirit Dragon for help in constructing their ancestral blade, or turn to a human enchanter to help them fight off attacks by them?
The spiritual dragons are azure-scaled and govern the wind, clouds and rain, on which all agricultural life depends. Chinese people would take great care to avoid offending them, for if they grew angry or felt neglected, the result was bad weather, drought, flood or thunderstorms.
Despite that, Shenlong appears to signify a special ranking in the splendid robes and regalia of Chinese emperors. He was also five-clawed and therefore an imperial dragon.
Definitely looking CN, and potentially nasty. But also looking like a supporter of an imperial family. <sigh!!> There's so much I don't know!! The Spirit Dragons may well have supported the Emperor of Imperial Lung Wa, against Minkai...
Ooh, thanks! Would you believe that an imperial/noble family would turn to a Spirit Dragon for help in constructing their ancestral blade, or turn to a human enchanter to help them fight off attacks by them?Well, since Jade Regent is a lot about kami and oni, why not go old school 1E OA and go with shen lung, spirit dragon?
Water or cold based powers, dragon of storms and rain. I believe they were chaotic neutral.
Any Imperial or noble family would love to turn to a spirit dragon for help in constructing their ancestral blade. But a better idea might be that the family is forseen to have a descendant gain the mandate of heaven and the dragon chooses to help forge the blade since dragons take a very long view...
Uqbarian, you've got me thinking. Not concluding anything, but definitely thinking...
One of the things that troubles me about the Imperial Dragons represented in Bestiary 3 is that even though there's five of them, they do not represent what I presume are the five elements in Tien thought: wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. Before you think I know anything on the subject, let me hastily quote my source:
In some lands, scholars of magic insist that material things consist of five elements, not four: fire, earth, metal, water, and wood. Rather than directly opposing each other, these five elements counter and generate each other in a wheel-like formation: wood overcomes earth, earth overcomes water, water overcomes fire, fire overcomes metal, and metal overcomes wood.
I'm going to shamelessly steal Uqbarian's summary of the five Imperial Dragons we have, but put them in the above elemental order:
Forest dragons: CE, earth subtype, piercing damage (should be wood subtype)Underworld dragons: LE, fire subtype, fire damage (lava) (should be earth subtype by concept)
Sea dragons: CG, water subtype, fire damage (steam) (is water subtype)
...(none w/ fire subtype, unless it's "underworld dragons," in which case there's none w/ earth subtype)
...(none w/ metal subtype)
Sky dragons: LG, air subtype, electricity damage (no relevant subtype)
Sovereign dragons: N, no subtype, sonic damage (no subtype)
I'm not sure where I'm going with this; certainly neither a Cloud nor a Light Dragon help things out any. (And, yes, I like Light Dragon better than Sun Dragon as a name.)
I'm also trying to get five alignments in a circle in the standard 3x3 grid, and I can't figure out how to do it. Forest (CE) to Underworld (LE) looks promising, but the next one jumps to CG w/ Sea, and if we change its alignment to LG I suspect it has to be majorly rewritten.
<> three types of physical damage (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing)
<> five types of energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic)
<> force -- except that now the Sovereign Dragon should get force.
Again, I don't know where I'm going with this, except that it's grist for the thought mill.
Since dì "earth; land; soil; ground" semantically contrasts with tian "heaven; sky" (e.g., tiandi "heaven and earth; universe", see Tiandihui), the dilong is paired with the tianlong "heavenly dragon". Chinese dragons were supposedly able to fly, and thus were considered celestial creatures rather than terrestrial ones like the "earthbound" dilong.
(Chinese characters removed)
The Forest Dragon is specifically called a dilung, so any identification w/ disparate Chinese elements is screwed from the get-go.
EtA:
Chinese classic texts frequently mention yinglong "a winged rain-dragon" in myths...Yinglong drew lines on the ground to show Yu where to dig drainage and irrigation canals [to control flooding].
I believe that a Rain Dragon is the river dragon you were musing on, Uqbarian.
Ooh, thanks! Would you believe that an imperial/noble family would turn to a Spirit Dragon for help in constructing their ancestral blade, or turn to a human enchanter to help them fight off attacks by them?Any Imperial or noble family would love to turn to a spirit dragon for help in constructing their ancestral blade. But a better idea might be that the family is forseen to have a descendant gain the mandate of heaven and the dragon chooses to help forge the blade since dragons take a very long view...
I haven't discarded your suggestion by any means, Kyudoka, even if I have gotten distracted by grandly cosmological schemes. And I appreciate the significant difference in perspective here! LOL Thank you very much.
So do you have anything to weigh in with on the other possibilities?
Somewhere (in Occult Adventures, I think) it's spelled out that in the Pathfinder cosmology, Void is elemental energy mixed with negative energy; Wood is elemental energy mixed with First World energy; and Aether is elemental energy mixed with ethereal energy/force. I don't know if there's an official reason for how Metal is distinct from Earth.
I think it's easier to work with the four standard elements (via the Minkaian wheel), but I'm still pondering!
Thanks for the info! I agree with you that the Minkan set is an easier elemental scheme to work with. I'd love to see a quote, if you can find it, on the Minkan scheme. (And copy it in, digitally, without too much trouble.)
I've been hard at work coming up with a scheme for the nine dragons, based on a comment about rainbows that they're very dangerous, a bad omen -- they connect Sky and Earth, Yin and Yang, but might do so in marriage, or might do so adulterously. Also a comment that the universe is defined as "tien" (heavens) and I believe "di" (earth). So...
I've moved Sea Dragons (who also design tightly-restricted canals) to LE and Underworld Dragons (greedy as they are) to NE. The reason to make Sea Dragons evil is that then the dragons representing terrestrial locations are all on the bottom row of the alignment chart. And I could make the L - N - C columns represent forces connecting heavens and earth.
Sky (LG), Tienlung, Air, Elec cone
Rain (LN ?), Yinglung, Water, Piercing cone
Sea (CG > LE ?), Jiaolung, Water, Bludg line only
Thunder (NG ?), Shenlung, Void/spirit (Sonic), Sonic cone
Sovereign (N), Lungwang, , Void/spirit (Force), Force cone
Underworld (LE > NE ?), Futsanglung, Fire, Fire line
Cloud (CG ?), Feilung, Air, Cold cone
Rainbow (CN), Hung, Void/spirit (Light), Brilliant enery + slashing cone
Forest (CE), Dilung, Earth, Acid line
I used the names comparable to what's in the bestiary, but hopefully you can figure out which entry to click on in the Chinese Dragons entry of Wikipedia. (Hint: Futsanglung is Fucanglong & Hung is Hong.) That is, if you or anyone else want to help me figure out if my opportunistic alignments can be supported...
I've got to stop working on this for this week -- I'm running tomorrow, and I've got more immediate things to prep! (Luckily, we're still in the first book; I'm working ahead.) But I'm hoping to hear comments on whether this scheme is supportable -- and what other abilities should be included for each of the new dragons.
Concerning the five elements, if you want to read more (wikipedia has a great article on each that I use for my Jade Regent game), the Chinese refer to it as Wu Xing and the Japanese call it Godai. Uqbarian has the right elements with each one.
Bitter Lily, I suggest you read the articles on wikipedia before you go to far in associating elements and breath weapons with asian elements because asians associate each of their elements with aspects of nature and aspects of the human existence more so than the western alchemical elements which are well associated with things of their nature (eg fire with fire). Some of the asian associations are initially counter-intuitive but make sense the more you read about them.
The page on Wu Xing has a very nice (if circular) 'grid' showing the proper elemental associations. A 5x5 grid might be a better way of representing the five elements. If you assume the top left is #1 and number from left to right, downwards, then:
Wood = 3
Water = 11
Fire = 15
Metal = 22
Earth = 24
And all are exactly 2 squares away from each other.
Kyudoka, thanks for the pointer! I had found the article on Wu Xing, read enough to figure out that the Imperial Dragons we have didn't fit, and abandoned Wikipedia without checking out Japanese elements. Oops!
I will say this, I'll be much more comfy working with "Minkan" elements than the "Lung Wa" ones -- not that I'll actually understand Buddhist philosophy in three easy lessons. Nonetheless, a linear arrangement of Earth ascending to Water ascending to Fire ascending to Wind ascending to Heaven (what I'm calling that 5th element) is easier to pretend I understand than a circular arrangement that flows cross-circle even as it flows around it.
<> Sea Dragons or jiaolungs are obviously Water dragons, although their steam breath weapon is a bit transitional with fire; I still prefer to give them a bludgeoning water weapon only. And obviously finding more Water dragons is trivial -- but yinglungs, Rain Dragons, were the most important I identified earlier.
<> Sky Dragons are obviously Wind dragons, although I get hung up on the name, tienlungs, since "tian" was translated as "heaven." I was also looking at adding feilungs, Cloud Dragons, to this element. (Except now you're going to point out that the earth is yin/cold, and the sky is yang/hot, so I have to change the cold breath attack... The base concept I had is still very Windy.)
<> Sovereign Dragons are also clearly presented as Heaven (and dragons of thought, creativity & communication). I didn't have anything to add, but again, I keep looking at the identification of tienlung with "Sky" or Wind.
<> Forest Dragons, however, are a complete mishmash! They are identified as "dilungs," earth dragons, but as presented they're the dragons of plants (Water) rather than of anything stable. I'd probably like to completely invent something outside of the dragon-mythos for dilungs -- proper Stone Dragons with stone-based abilities and a cold breath. If we are to stick somewhat-sorta to the material, as aquatic as dragons are in their very nature, coming up with a dragon to represent Earth is tricky. Coiled Dragons, pan-lungs, are the closest I can find to a dragon of stability, as they are "dragons which do not yet ascend to heaven," living in lakes rather than moving water.
<> Underearth Dragons or futsanglungs, meanwhile, are supposed to be Fire dragons, but get all the Earthy abilities for manipulating stone. Stone Shape is thematic for a lava dragon, I suppose, but not Stone Wall! And since now I've reminded myself to check the heat/cold associations for sky/earth, I think I'd like to just leave this one off the list.
<> That means we need a Fire dragon -- cue the hungs or Rainbow Dragons that I ended up favoring over my original pick, Light Dragons. I had thought of them both as light-based, and still do, but get this quote from wiki for the essence of Fire: "The rainbow is seen as a resplendent symbol of the union of yang and yin; it serves therefore as an emblem of a marriage. You should never point your finger at a rainbow. But the rainbow can have another meaning, in that it may appear when either husband or wife is more handsome and attractive than the other, and therefore enters upon an adulterous relationship. The rainbow is then an emblem of fornication or sexual abuse, and forebodes ill."
Whew! What say you both?
One other thought:
If we're going to try to cram five elements into a 3x3 grid for alignments, they clearly have to be ordered differently. One assignment would have Lawful (Earth) ascending to Chaotic (Water/Fire), which would then ascend to Neutral (Wind/Heaven). And note that that's utterly independent of Good/Evil -- although specific dragons might have a leaning one way or the other, of course.
So now I'm thinking of something like this, turning the normal chart on its side and putting the "lowest" element on the bottom row of my chart:
Heaven/Good (NG) - Heaven/Neutral (N) - Heaven/Evil (NE)
Wind/Good (NG) --- Wind/Neutral (N) --- Wind/Evil (NE)
Fire/Good (CG) ---- Fire/Neutral (CN) ---- Fire/Evil (CE)
Water/Good (CG) -- Water/Neutral (CN) -- Water/Evil (CE)
Earth/Good (LG) --- Earth/Neutral (LN) --- Earth/Evil (LE)
However, that's potentially 15 dragons! I'm daunted.
Errant thought of the day: I also saw a note that dilungs do not fly.
Second errant thought: If I go with panlungs, I'll probably prefer Lake Dragons to Coiled Dragons.
Third errant thought: I skipped shenlungs, or what I'm calling Thunder Dragons. Since they are literally "Spirit Dragons," they should be of the Heaven element. They'd still have sonic elements, but it would change their spell-like abilities & spells from being air-oriented to, I'm thinking, that quintessential element in Golarion: magic.
But even before I could finish typing that thought out, I started thinking about which kind of magic -- which school. Illusion, I thought: creativity without substance! And then I thought, yes, but illusions are the ultimate in elusiveness: Wind. So then I started wanting to ponder which schools the Minkans would associate with each element. Not necessarily with specific dragons, mind you... Let's not make this more difficult than we have to! :-)
Abjuration > Making something resistant to change; Earth.
Conjuration > Creating or summoning something physical; Earth!!!
Divination > Sensing something in one's mind; Air in European thought, but here maybe using a "sixth sense" is Heaven???
Enchantment > Making someone change & adapt; Water.
Evocation > Calling each element in turn into being for the barest of instants; the rawest power of magic; Heaven
Illusion > Creating something utterly elusive; Wind!!!
Transmutation > Forcing change; Fire.
Necromancy, however, puzzles me. Quick google-fu has revealed that it is unfulfilled desire or greed (Fire) that creates "hungry ghosts." They typically hunger after all kinds of disgusting substances, possibly blood. But japanese "necromancers" are blind women who channel the dead after a song about Water.
It's clearly possible to over-think this. Summon Nature's Ally is conjuration, and so likely Earth -- but animals are fire, so is the type actually [Earth [Fire]]? ;-)
Still, it's occurred to me that ancient dragons get an awful lot of spells, so an association with a school might help in coming up with a spell-list. Not as a definitive limit, just as a tendency to round out the thematic list. And at least the exercise is helping me find an association for Thunder Dragons: loud and flashy evocation.
*Ahem* I'm back yet again, returning to the dragons I wanted to reject --
<> Underearth Dragons or futsanglungs, meanwhile, are supposed to be Fire dragons, but get all the Earthy abilities for manipulating stone. Stone Shape is thematic for a lava dragon, I suppose, but not Stone Wall! And since now I've reminded myself to check the heat/cold associations for sky/earth, I think I'd like to just leave this one off the list.
Quick google-fu has revealed that it is unfulfilled desire or greed (Fire) that creates "hungry ghosts."
Admittedly, that assignment of "hungry ghosts" to Fire is entirely mine and therefore horribly amateur. But if it it's right...
Underworld dragons—also called futsanglungs—are calculating, greedy creatures that carve great labyrinthine tunnels beneath the world, defending their hidden treasures.
Put it all together, and Underworld Dragons really are fire dragons!
<> With that in mind, the non-Transmutation stone spell-likes have to go. If I continue to associate Transmutation in general with Fire, that school rather than the material of stone would be this dragon's specialty. (Yes, I'm suggesting that they would get Baleful Polymorph.)<> Of course, I goofed yesterday and called them by a name even more earthy, Underearth Dragons -- and that confusion might indicate a name change is in order, too! Calling them by a shortened translation of their names, Treasure Dragons, might also help us gaijin.
<> Finally, I can't say that a fire breath is opposed to their elemental association -- but it seems a bit short-changing in this case. I'll post the math separately, but I think we need an acid breath (which also burns), with lingering acid.
EtA: I think the acid should do half damage for 1 round/3 CL.
As I have been, I'm hoping for comments & suggestions!
With fire, an ancient dragon does 20d6 (for 70), divided by 2 (for 35), less 8 pts for hardness = a disappointing 27 pts per breath.
He will have to loose 450/27 = 17 blasts at our wall to break it.
And given that he can loose blasts only every 1d4 rounds, he will be spending 1+(16*2.5) = 41 rounds to do it. I don't think that 4 minutes is a reasonable length of time, not for a lava-based dragon. It's what any fire-breathing ancient dragon could do.
With acid, I'm proposing that the Treasure Dragon will do the same dice of acid damage as for fire but also half-damage on each subsequent round for CL/3 rounds. An ancient Treasure Dragon is a 13th level caster, so that's 4 extra rounds of half-damage.
In numbers, she's doing the same 27 pts on the round when she breathes plus half-damage (20d6/2 for 35), divided by 2 (17.5), less 8 = 9.5 pts on each of the next 4 rounds. That sounds even more disappointing at first, but it adds up -- 38 pts total, which is substantially more than the original 27. Every breath is now doing 65 pts of damage over time.
It means that she will break the wall in only 450/65 = 7 blasts!
She'll be at it for 1+(6*2.5)+4 = 20 rounds, or half the time that the fire-based dragon needs.
What about squishy targets?
All of the ancient imperial dragons do 70 pts average damage with their breath weapon, which arguably isn't that scary when it's limited to once every 1d4 rounds. Not if the party is of a level when they shouldn't be running away! Remember, this particular dragon can turn stone to lava; it should be scary even to a high-level party. But the prospect of facing 70 pts on the first round and 35 on each of the next 4, with the certainty that the dragon can do it all again at some point during those 4 rounds -- now that's terrifying! But to keep it from being certainly fatal, I do have to add a way out. So I'm proposing the following language:
Special Abilities: Breath Weapon The breath weapon's acid continues to burn for 1 round per 3 caster levels (maximum 5 rounds for a Wyrm or older Treasure Dragon), dealing half of the normal damage to any creature that failed its saving throw against the attack, unless the acid is neutralized, dispelled, or washed away.
Whadja think?
Next note: I'm thinking of calling all of the Minkan dragons Neutral on the Good/Evil axis. It's tempting to call a Treasure Dragon "evil" because they hoard, and Sky Dragons "good" because they are "fearsome ... protectors of those in need." I'm now saying that if Minkan Dragons indeed have a good/evil axis, it's based on principles so different from those of the west that to us, it's equivalent to say they're all neutral.
The following Wiki quote is from the article on Kami, but I'm thinking dragons are similar.
Kami are of two minds. They can nurture and love when respected, or they can cause destruction and disharmony when disregarded. Kami must be appeased in order to gain their favor and avoid their wrath.
Essentially, all of the Minkan dragons are willing to talk first, attack second. But you really, really want them all to like what you say... Hmm, how does that button go? Oh, yes. "Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup."
Since the Law/Chaos axis is assigned based on element, this means that "element" is the important alignment, not something related to a 3x3 grid.
(Hey, who figured out the grid? Thassilonians? Taldans? Someone else?)
As always, I'm hoping for comments & suggestions. Stout disagreement, if it's warranted. :-)
Wow, that's a lot of writing that I missed over the weekend lol
One note, Minkaian for dragon is ryu. Lung is dragon in Tien.
If you want to stay with 5 elements and 5 dragons in the Minkaian theme, why don't you do a 'pie' quartered into air, earth, fire, and water with void above it? Or in a 3x3 grid use the 4 corners for the alignment chart and the center and that brings you:
air = Sky imperial dragon, LG, electricity
earth = Underworld imperial dragon, LE, fire
fire = Forest imperial dragon, CE, piercing
water = Sea imperial dragon, CG, fire or bludgeoning
void = Sovereign dragon, N, sonic
In fact, I might even use that myself!
Depending on how much asian stuff you want, I could send you what I have for Jade Regent. PM me if you're interested.
Yay! Someone is in fact still reading the deluge of words.
Thanks for pointing out the change in names. Sadly, the front part changes too, and I don't know to what... For now, I'll go with the Chinese names just because that's what you can wiki.
I definitely am committed to more than 5 dragons -- there's just so many more cool ones out there! And I think Forest dragons have got to go, unless there's a way to identify them with an actual Chinese dragon. They're water, clearly.
Underworld dragons are fire, clearly. (Although I want them to breathe acid.)
Earth dragons have to breathe cold or some physical damage.
I'll go to work on this again, and put together the 10 dragons I most want to use.
As for sending me things, yes!!!! ETA: But I don't know how to PM.... <wail>
Ok, so yeah, I wrote a lot this weekend. LOL!
Still, do you have comments? I'd love to know if you agree or disagree with the elemental associations I've got at this point. It's two dragons per element, 10 total. I definitely cannot bear to add another dragon per element -- I don't think there are enough themes for distinctive magic left, for one thing. So alignment is best left out right now!
- Right now I've got
- for Earth: Earth (Stone?) Dragons (dilungs) & Lake Dragons (panlungs)
- for Water: Sea Dragons (jiaolungs) & Rain Dragons (yinglungs)
- for Fire: Lava (Treasure?) Dragons (futsanglungs) & Rainbow Dragons (hungs)
- for Wind: Sky Dragons (tienlungs) & Cloud Dragons (feilungs)
- for Heaven: Spirit (Thunder?) Dragons (shenlungs) & Sovereign Dragons (lungwangs)
- Earth)
- Do you like associating Abjuration & Conjuration as schools with the element of earth? I'm looking at Earth Dragons (dilungs) as closely associated with Abjuration. I don't have a strong draconic tie to Conjuration -- in fact, it's the only school I'm not tying to a dragon. <Feh!>
- I'm not fond of "Earth Dragons" as a name, but "Forest Dragon" has been utterly round-filed. "Stone Dragon?" They'd live in caves or burrows. What do Earth or Stone Dragons breathe? I'm thinking they have spells & abilities somewhat stone-related (esp. if Conjuration), but mostly Abjuration. Could they, should they, breathe Dispel Magic?
- I'm thinking Lake Dragons breathe cold, and have ice-related spells.
- Neither of the two types of dragons fly at all. Earth/Stone dragons burrow; Lake Dragons swim.
- Water)
- I said that Enchantment was Water & Transmutation Fire. On second thought, I don't think so. They both involve making someone else change or adapt -- Fire. So what school should be Water -- Necromancy? (As evidence, the "necromancer" I read about sang a song re: water before theoretically channeling the dead...)
- Sea Dragons' breath weapon is problematic; if it's not steam (fire), then ironically I don't have a good candidate for a fire breath. I just don't like it. And what's the broad base for their spells? Necromancy?
- Rain Dragons' breath weapon is piercing water. But again, I don't have a good basis for spells & abilities. Hmm, rain... flooding... drawing canals... Water in general, I suppose.
- Both dragons fly poorly & swim, although Sea Dragons swim very well indeed.
- Fire)
- So, Enchantment & Transmutation as associated schools? To put the point from above differently, they both involve acting upon another. I'm looking at the two Fire dragons for strong ties to each school.
- See my post above for Treasure Dragons, although now I'm leaning toward Lava Dragons. I want them to breathe acid (1/2 damage on-going to those who don't save against the first blast). Their abilities would mostly be related to Transmutation.
- I've talked about Rainbow Dragons above, too. I'm thinking they breathe slashing damage, coupled (for older dragons) with Brilliant Energy. They've got both light & Enchantment nailed, in terms of themes for their spells and such.
- Both fly reasonably well, although Lava Dragons also have Meld into Stone or something like that as an SLA & I'd love to give Rainbow Dragons a close-range turning w/ age into long-range Dimensional Bounce.
- Wind)
- What about Illusion as the Wind school of magic? I'm thinking of tying the school closely to Sky Dragons.
- Sky Dragons... I've got that problem in that "tian" gets translated as "heaven" and these are the definitely related "tienlungs." But we've got two better contenders for Heaven-related, so Sky Dragons tienlungs become... I guess. They breathe a bludgeoning buffet of wind. For lack of anything better, I'm proposing an Illusion focus for their magic. They would have "truesight," for instance.
- Cloud Dragons are the ones that breathe lightning, and might have electrical SLAs, but mostly their magic is related to cloud/fog & invisible/ethereal qualities. They have "cloudsight," for instance.
- Both fly, of course, quite well.
- Heaven) (my name for the 5th element many call Void)
- I'm calling Evocation, as forceful as it is, Heaven-related because it calls up things aren't really there -- spiritual energy turning into all the other elements. The other Heaven-related school is Divination. I propose that each is associated with one of the element's dragons.
- Spirit Dragons (I've called them Thunder Dragons, too) breathe sonic. They are definitely associated with thunder, and focus on Evocations for magic.
- Sovereign Dragons breathe force. They are associated with Divinations & communication.
- Both fly extremely well -- and maybe can go ethereal at will?
ETA: No, no, Heaven's dragons don't go ethereal, that's Cloud Dragons. This is complicated...
It really, really is complicated. I'm now thinking that if yang is hot & yin is cold, that it would be better if water did the buffeting bludgeon damage and Sky the fire. I'd better go to bed before I re-think ALL of it. ;)
Yes, enough already! But it's occurred to me that Lake Dragons could easily enough justify Summon Nature's Ally ... and maybe other Conjurations, if I really want a dragon/school.
A few comments before I leave for work.... :-(
If the Lava Dragon breathes acid, I believe that that would not be able to be dispelled, in that the acid is an actual physical manifestation. Pray (pun intended) that your Cleric/Druid had Create Water today....
As for the Heaven Dragons not being able to go ethereal, perhaps instead they could get Plane Shift as an SLA -- and, at that point, the various other Planar spells (Adaptation, Contact, Ally, etc.).
OK, a few more comments.
The wording on the Rainbow Dragon's Dimensional Bounce is unclear, or maybe I just have too much blood in my caffeine stream. :-) BitterLily says that it means that the range increases with age.
For the Stone Dragon, rather than breathing Dispel Magic (or, rather, Greater Dispel, depending on age), they should get Anti-Magic Field as an SLA, defined to cover a radius sufficient to encompass their body (and, therefore, naturally increasing in size as they age).
Thanks, Debnor, for reading what I've written! (For everyone else: he's my husband! And... a player in my game. :) )
If the Lava Dragon breathes acid, I believe that that would not be able to be dispelled, in that the acid is an actual physical manifestation. Pray (pun intended) that your Cleric/Druid had Create Water today....
As a summary, the Lava Dragon's breath weapon gets special text as follows --
The breath weapon's acid continues to burn for 1 round per 3 caster levels (maximum 5 rounds for a Wyrm or older Treasure Dragon), dealing half of the normal damage to any creature that failed its saving throw against the attack, unless the acid is neutralized, dispelled, or washed away.
With all respect for your game knowledge, Debnor, I come back at you with PRD-fu --
School: conjuration (creation/acid); Level: sorcerer/wizard 7 (...)
Acid erupts from your space in all directions, causing 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) to creatures and unattended objects in the area. On your turn in each of the next 2 rounds, creatures and objects that failed their saves against the initial burst take an additional 1d6 points of acid damage per 2 caster levels (maximum 10d6) unless the acid is neutralized, dispelled, or washed away.
If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by summon monster), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.
ETA: Maybe "dispel" isn't an option, simply because a breath weapon isn't a spell or spell-like ability; it's a supernatural ability. Hmmmm.
Plane Shift
As for the Heaven Dragons not being able to go ethereal, perhaps instead they could get Plane Shift as an SLA -- and, at that point, the various other Planar spells (Adaptation, Contact, Ally, etc.).
Yes! That is exactly what I was groping for. Now... Plane Shift to which planes?? First thought: the Elemental Planes for that loud, flashy Spirit Dragon, and the Outer Planes for the Sovereign Dragon. But I'll have to think about it. You'd think really old Earth/Stone or even Lake Dragons could get to the plane of Earth... And if there's an associated Outer Plane, too, with each dragon, then maybe that one as well... Or maybe not. Just because something is earthy or fiery or whatever doesn't mean it can just hop over to that plane...
For the Stone Dragon, rather than breathing Dispel Magic (or, rather, Greater Dispel, depending on age), they should get Antimagic Field as an SLA, defined to cover a radius sufficient to encompass their body (and, therefore, naturally increasing in size as they age).
Sure, although I'd prefer to make that an alternative as long as they have a breath weapon attack available. I like the idea that they can breathe out a line that would counterspell whatever that nasty wizard over there is doing...
There's also something I don't like about Antimagic Field the way I'm reading it -- it looks like the caster is affected! Although I suppose it's easy enough to write in an exception, since this would be an SLA, not a simple spell on its list.
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.
End question: what do you think in hind-sight about Antimagic Field, and what do the rest of you think?
~~~
Again, Debnor, thanks for reading! I hope to get more responses later on the ... mythical ... elemental associations once you've had time to mull things over.
A new after-proposal re: base speed has occurred to me, although I've been modifying it even as I've been typing this out. (I went and checked out "western" dragons, and found that they move significantly faster than their Imperial kin.) So...
Wind & Heaven dragons should be penalized when running on land, with a base speed of only 40 feet. (Normal for Imperial Dragons, but slow compared to their western kin.)
Water & Fire dragons should get a base speed of 50 feet.
Lake Dragons undulate surprisingly fast across land (call it a base speed of 60 feet).
As for Stone Dragons, I have an idea, but it may be too complex:
For all that Stone Dragons tend to move slowly and deliberately with a base speed of only 20 feet, as long as they are not fatigued or exhausted, they can sprint: they increase their base speed per movement action to 80 feet. They retain their DEX bonus to AC when sprinting. A Stone Dragon may sprint for as many minutes per hour as it has dice in its breath weapon; these minutes need not be consecutive, but they must be taken in one-minute increments.
I like your elemental associations, but at the risk of throwing a wrench into it...I think I have a solution for your 10 dragons and alignment issue.
5 Chinese dragons (lungs) on the corners/extremes of the alignment chart with one at Neutral.
On top of that, layer 5 Japanese dragons (ryu) in the center of each side (NG, LN, NE, CN) plus one at Neutral since the Japanese are more about concensus.
That gives a dragon for each alignment plus 2 neutral dragons.
Godai:
air
earth
fire
water
void
Wu Xing:
earth
fire
metal
water
wood
I haven't looked in depth at your elemental associations and powers, I'm still a step or three behind.
But a comment about Stone Dragons. Give them the Earth Glide power of earth elementals.
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Haven't read all. Will do when I get some time.
Just wanted to clarify what I think the Chinese elemental associations are for Paizo's Imperial Dragons (list based on Uqbarian's first post) :
Earth = Forest dragons: CE, earth subtype, breath weapon does piercing damage
Water = Sea dragons: CG, water subtype, fire damage (steam)
Fire = Underworld dragons: LE, fire subtype, fire damage.
Wood = Sky dragons: LG, air subtype, electricity damage
Metal = Sovereign dragons: N, no subtype, sonic damage
I went by subtype for those elements that are in common with the classical elements.
Wood association with sky and electricity (lightning) seems natural to me, and I can see Sovereign dragons associated with civilization and symbols of power (like steel and gold), hence Metal
I like your elemental associations, but at the risk of throwing a wrench into it...I think I have a solution for your 10 dragons and alignment issue.
5 Chinese dragons (lungs) on the corners/extremes of the alignment chart with one at Neutral.
On top of that, layer 5 Japanese dragons (ryu) in the center of each side (NG, LN, NE, CN) plus one at Neutral since the Japanese are more about concensus.
That gives a dragon for each alignment plus 2 neutral dragons. (...)
I haven't looked in depth at your elemental associations and powers, I'm still a step or three behind.
Hmmm, that is a wrench, and why I'm talking this through a bit at a time.
I'm unhappy just because I've become quite fond of all my lungs... But you may very well have a good point!
Would any of the ones that I've identified qualify as ryu? (Quick wiki says: Ryujin might be the Sea Dragon. Zennyo Ryūō the Rain Dragon. Hmmm. After that, it appears I would need to start all over. Hmmm.)
But a comment about Stone Dragons. Give them the Earth Glide power of earth elementals.
Sure!
Haven't read all. Will do when I get some time.
Just wanted to clarify what I think the Chinese elemental associations are for Paizo's Imperial Dragons (list based on Uqbarian's first post) :
Earth = Forest dragons: CE, earth subtype, breath weapon does piercing damage
Water = Sea dragons: CG, water subtype, fire damage (steam)
Fire = Underworld dragons: LE, fire subtype, fire damage.
Wood = Sky dragons: LG, air subtype, electricity damage
Metal = Sovereign dragons: N, no subtype, sonic damageI went by subtype for those elements that are in common with the classical elements.
Wood association with sky and electricity (lightning) seems natural to me, and I can see Sovereign dragons associated with civilization and symbols of power (like steel and gold), hence Metal
HI! It's nice to see you here! Let me refer you to my sensei :)
Whereas the classical Greek elements were concerned with substances or natural qualities, the Chinese xíng are "primarily concerned with process and change," hence the common translation as "phases" or "agents". By the same token, Mù is thought of as "Tree" rather than "Wood". The word 'element' is thus used within the context of Chinese medicine with a different meaning to its usual meaning. (...)
The five phases are usually used to describe the state in nature:
Wood/Spring=(72 days) a period of growth, which generates abundant wood and vitality
Fire/Summer=(72 days) a period of swelling, flowering, brimming with fire and energy
Earth=(72 days=4x18days (4 transitional seasons x 18days each) the in-between transitional seasonal periods, or a separate 'season' known as Late Summer or Long Summer - in the latter case associated with leveling and dampening (moderation) and fruition
Metal/Autumn=(72 days) a period of harvesting and collecting
Water/Winter=(72 days) a period of retreat, where stillness and storage pervades
Maybe I should simply retire at this point with a repeat of my statement that I find it easier to pretend to know something about the Godai than the Wu Xing! I really don't know how to associate dragons with these 'elements' or 'phases'. But after you strip them of the name "dilungs," there seem to be compelling Wood qualities to Forest Dragons...
End question: what do you think in hind-sight about Antimagic Field, and what do the rest of you think?
Well, this is an Imperial Dragon we're talking about. S/He should not need magic to defeat a mere group of adventurers who are denied their magic as well!
I wouldn't have a problem with the dragon being enveloped in the field. In fact, I was taking that into account when I suggested that the field expand with the dragon's age, else you end up with the problem of the kitten who thinks he's hidden because his head is, unaware that his little rump is sticking up... :-)
Well, this is an Imperial Dragon we're talking about. S/He should not need magic to defeat a mere group of adventurers who are denied their magic as well!
I wouldn't have a problem with the dragon being enveloped in the field. In fact, I was taking that into account when I suggested that the field expand with the dragon's age, else you end up with the problem of the kitten who thinks he's hidden because his head is, unaware that his little rump is sticking up... :-)
You have a point. Although your image brings back sour memories -- I once had a cat w/ peeing on the carpet problems. She'd stick her head behind a door, unaware that her hiney -- engaged as it was in nefarious activities -- was sticking out. It caused a lot of fuss and bother! Somehow, I expect a dragon, even a young one, to have better self-awareness than that! LOL
ETA: The spell lasts 10 minutes. I'd still prefer that it be an SLA, with the breath weapon a blast of Dispel Magic. Or of course, Greater Dispel Magic as the dragon ages.
I like your elemental associations, but at the risk of throwing a wrench into it...I think I have a solution for your 10 dragons and alignment issue.
5 Chinese dragons (lungs) on the corners/extremes of the alignment chart with one at Neutral.
On top of that, layer 5 Japanese dragons (ryu) in the center of each side (NG, LN, NE, CN) plus one at Neutral since the Japanese are more about concensus.
That gives a dragon for each alignment plus 2 neutral dragons.
I've actually been working on an alignment system for 10 alignments over here. I want something that feels truly foreign.
What do you think?
PS: Debnor, you are authorized to follow that link!
For all our information, I followed a link & discovered that the wiki entry on Color in Chinese culture was a lot more informative than the article on Wu Xing, in terms of what one might associate with specific elements/phases/whatever -- which might help associate specific dragons, if I end up with the 5 & 5 idea.
Ha! More ryu, or at least Japanese dragons (mind you, some of the "lungs" really did arrive in Japan).
Her Sanskrit name is "Sarasvatî Devî", which means "flowing water". This is why Benzaiten is the goddess of everything that flows: water, words, speech, and music. (...)
In the Rig-Veda (6.61.7) Sarasvati killed the three-headed snake, also known as Vritra. This is probably one of the sources of Sarasvati/Benzaiten's close link with snakes and dragons in Japan. She has a shrine on the Island of Enoshima in Sagami Bay, about 50 kilometers south of Tokyo; and a five-headed dragon and her are the main people in the Enoshima Engi, a history of the shrines on Enoshima written by the Japanese Buddhist monk Kokei. According to Kokei, Benzaiten is the third daughter of the dragon-king of Munetsuchi (literally "lake without heat"), the lake which is at the center of the world in an ancient Buddhist view.
Well, Munetsuchi sounds like my Lake Dragon to me...
Benzaiten... more to investigate here.OK, I'm going after those other associations:
Chiryu (Stone Dragon -- dilong)
Uryu or Zennyo Ryūō (Rain Dragon -- but I gave the nod to the more important (to the Chinese!) yinglung, not the yulung that made it to Japan. That can be fixed!)
Ryujin (Sea Dragon -- Mizuchi or on'yomi translate jiaolung, apparently, but ryujin is a better Japanese Sea Dragon; lots of colorful details there.)
Tenryu (Sky Dragon -- Tienlong)
Hiryu (Cloud Dragon -- Feilong)
Shinryu (Spirit Dragon -- Shenlong)
Seiryu (Sovereign Dragon -- although I call them lungwangs, not qinglungs; again, fixable.)
Sadly, on a quick survey, it appears that my Lava Dragons & especially beloved Rainbow Dragons did not make it to Japan. That's both the fire dragons! A hard blow, but it's the only two that don't translate. Maybe they did make it ... to Minkai. Or maybe the story of Benzaiten will give us an alternative.
It seems that rainbows are important in Japan, but different.
Takama-ga-hara, literally "High Heaven's Plain" but usually translated as the "High Plain of Heaven," is a place in Japanese mythology. In Shinto, Takama-ga-hara is the place where the Kami live. The legends say it's connected to the Earth by the bridge Ama-no uki-hashi (the "Floating Bridge of Heaven"). In Shinto, when a kami is worshipped, it is invited to leave Takama-ga-hara and enter a shrine.
It's not much of a stretch, when one looks at rainbow mythology in general, to assume that the "Floating Bridge of Heaven" is the rainbow.
As a reference for me, if I wonder where I got "uryu" --
Chinese dilong or Japanese chiryū is the name of a chess piece in shogi. In Taikyoku shogi, this piece has "earth dragon" written on one side and yulong or uryū "rain dragon" on the obverse.
^^ Bump ^^ I'm hoping someone is still interested!
In talking w/ Debnor, I've realized that Lava Dragons, in particular, could easily have invaded Minkai from the mainland -- either after Earthfall, or more recently, with Aroden's death.
But rainbows are too important in Minkai to just bring in hungs. An ukihashi could be a dragon who flies kami from heaven to earth, sure. But it would have Japanese characteristics. Unfortunately, I don't get the sense that Minkaian Rainbow Dragons would have fire associations, beyond fire's position mid-way between heaven & earth. Any help on this???
PS: This is really important. I started all this off looking for a dragon to inspire Suishen, and had fallen in love w/ Chinese hungs. Ooops! Maybe I have to fall back to a Sky Dragon (tenryu).
I'm doing some more searching...
Found a wonderful site on dragons. Snagged...
The main 'dragon kings' recognized in Japan:
- Sui Riu is a rain-dragon, which when in pain causes red rain, coloured by its blood.
- Han Riu is striped with nine different colours and is forty feet long. This dragon can never reach heaven.
- Ka Riu is a small dragon; only seven feet long. It's said that Ka-Riu is scarlet, a fiery red. Some sources even say that its body is all flame.
- Ri Riu has wonderful sight and can see more than 100 miles.
- Fuku Riu is the Japanese Dragon of Good Luck. Likely to be depicted as "ascending" since an ascending dragon is a sign of good luck in Eastern culture.
- Kinryu is a golden dragon.
- Kiyo was originally a beautiful waitress. She becomes a dragon to seek revenge on a priest that lost his passion for her.
- O Goncho is a white dragon that signals famine.
- Uwibami is a huge fearsome flying beast that snatches and devours men right off horse's backs.
- Yamata-no-Orochi is an eight-headed dragon. Its belly is always bloody, its back is covered with moss. The Orichi is slain by Susanoo, a travelling warrior.
- Yofune-nushi was a sea serpent that feasted on young beautiful maidens. A [kick-ass] girl named Tokoyo blinded it with her knife, then killed it when it reared back and exposed its neck.
Lots of material here, sort of. Names, but not much in details. I wish I could find out more about Ka-Ryu, but google isn't being helpful right off the bat. I did find some sort of manga reference to Fire Dragon...
One other note I keep not mentioning, and do NOT want to forget: all of Minkai's dragons have three toes.
More thoughts on Draconic associations (long post) --
- Do you like associating Abjuration & Conjuration as schools with the element of earth? I'm looking at Earth Dragons (dilungs) as closely associated with Abjuration. I don't have a strong draconic tie to Conjuration -- in fact, it's the only school I'm not tying to a dragon. <Feh!>
- I'm not fond of "Earth Dragons" as a name, but "Forest Dragon" has been utterly round-filed. "Stone Dragon?" They'd live in caves or burrows. What do Earth or Stone Dragons breathe? I'm thinking they have spells & abilities somewhat stone-related (esp. if Conjuration), but mostly Abjuration. Could they, should they, breathe Dispel Magic?
- I'm thinking Lake Dragons breathe cold, and have ice-related spells.
- Neither of the two types of dragons fly at all. Earth/Stone dragons burrow; Lake Dragons swim.
Stone Dragons, I think, should be the ones to breathe slashing damage -- they breathe shards of rock. And the Anti-Magic Field still fits well with the association with Abjuration.
FYI - the kitten comment was not to say that even young dragons would be un-self-aware. Rather, it was a comment on the fact that the spell as written is a 10' radius, which a lot of dragons would have parts sticking out of, no matter where it originated.Lake Dragons should have the bludgeoning water jet. It makes some sense that the dragons that can't fly have physical damage breath weapons, rather than energy. And you had mentioned the possibility of them getting Conjure Nature's Ally -- perhaps having their spell palette be the Druidic conjurations would make sense.
- I said that Enchantment was Water & Transmutation Fire. On second thought, I don't think so. They both involve making someone else change or adapt -- Fire. So what school should be Water -- Necromancy? (As evidence, the "necromancer" I read about sang a song re: water before theoretically channeling the dead...)
- Sea Dragons' breath weapon is problematic; if it's not steam (fire), then ironically I don't have a good candidate for a fire breath. I just don't like it. And what's the broad base for their spells? Necromancy?
- Rain Dragons' breath weapon is piercing water. But again, I don't have a good basis for spells & abilities. Hmm, rain... flooding... drawing canals... Water in general, I suppose.
- Both dragons fly poorly & swim, although Sea Dragons swim very well indeed.
You are correct in saying that Enchantment should be Fire. Transmutation, OTOH, is usually about giving yourself or someone else an ability, rather than a condition. I think it should still be Water.
I like the spell base of Necromancy for Sea Dragons, but think that they should also add Conjuration [healing] -- many mythologies acknowledge the Sea as the wellspring and final destination of life. And, as such, they should breath either positive or negative energy, their choice.
Rain Dragons having Transmutation as their base makes sense too, I think. Rain is often shown as a transformative effect (e.g. a storm in the desert). And a driving rain can certainly feel like piercing needles on your skin, so a piercing damage breath weapon fits the model well.
- So, Enchantment & Transmutation as associated schools? To put the point from above differently, they both involve acting upon another. I'm looking at the two Fire dragons for strong ties to each school.
- See my post above for Treasure Dragons, although now I'm leaning toward Lava Dragons. I want them to breathe acid (1/2 damage on-going to those who don't save against the first blast). Their abilities would mostly be related to Transmutation.
- I've talked about Rainbow Dragons above, too. I'm thinking they breathe slashing damage, coupled (for older dragons) with Brilliant Energy. They've got both light & Enchantment nailed, in terms of themes for their spells and such.
- Both fly reasonably well, although Lava Dragons also have Meld into Stone or something like that as an SLA & I'd love to give Rainbow Dragons a close-range turning w/ age into long-range Dimensional Bounce.
Well, as I stated above, I think Water is more appropriate for Transmutation.
The Lava Dragons, being an import, would not have a specific school as their spell base. Rather, they would get all acid-descriptor spells, as well as spells related to maintaining and recovering a hoard - Alarm, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, See Invisible, etc. The Lava/acid breath is fine.
The Rainbow Dragons, I think, would breathe light, changing in hue with the dragon's age. The damage would be treated as fire. And I agree with them having light and enchantment spells as their base -- specifically including the Prismatic series of spells.
The Meld Into Stone seems to be more thematic for the Stone Dragon than the Lava Dragon. Perhaps Transmute Rock to Mud instead? And beware of giving opponents easy escape abilities - that can lead to some very frustrated players after the second or third time that the antagonist makes a clean getaway. Or, at least, prepare for having your players research teleportation/portal tracking spells.... ;-)
And, since you've smacked me over the head with it several times while I've been writing this, my response to your dismay about not finding Fire dragons in your research into Japanese mythology is very simple: Minkai is not Japan! If you want Fire dragons in Minkai, you can have them. You're the GM. It's not completely accurate to the source material, but every game runs into the issue of 'realism' vs. playability. You have the absolute right to tell the stories you want to tell.
To be continued (two elements to go)....
I realized that I had to ask Debnor to skip those last two sets of comments, since I had to seriously rearrange dragons for Wind & Heaven. My reading, still admittedly cursory, has shown me that "Spirit Dragon" or no, a Thunder Dragon or shenlung must have the Wind element. Meanwhile, a tienlung, mis-translated as Sky Dragon, most decidedly has the Heaven element! Yes, you're supposed to be able to stretch from earth (di) to heaven (tien) to encompass all that is.
But mainly, I've been working on seriously incorporating Japanese dragons, instead of just translating the Chinese ones. More to come on that...
One bit I've picked up on is that Japanese dragons are masters of shapeshifting, to the point that they get credited with all kinds of magical half-breed progeny! (Apparently, they can even take the shape of a log, but I ended up dropping that as just too over-the-top.) So...
Special Abilities All minkaian dragons develop the following spell-like abilities as they age, so they are not noted under specific dragon types.
If a dragon’s age category has no caster level, halve the next age’s level for purposes of duration. (For instance, if young dragons become 1st level casters, very young ones would be level 1/2 and wyrmlings level 1/4.) Conversely, minkaian dragons develop permanent shapeshifting with enough age, although “permanent” is relative: after all, a dragon may and will at some point dismiss a form. (If a dragon starts a day with an assumed permanent form, that counts as the dragon’s use of that type of form for the day.) Note that a dragon with permanent shapeshifting becomes able to procreate in shapeshifted form with natural animals or humanoids, although a female dragon will abort her fetus if she changes form while pregnant. The resulting offspring is always a magical creature of an appropriate sort. (For instance, the offspring of a minkaian dragon & a horse or deer might be a kirin.)
The progression of minkaian dragon shapeshifting abilities --
- Wyrmling – one form: snake form (own size to 1 less), duration 10 minutes/CL (D) once/day as if Beast Shape III.
- Very young – more forms: any animal form (own size to wyrmling –1), duration 10 minutes/CL (D) once/day as if Beast Shape III.
- Young – greater duration: any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration 1 hour/CL (D) once/day as if Beast Shape III.
- Juvenile – new form: any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration 1 hour/CL (D) once/day as if Beast Shape III;
specifically human form (medium), duration 10 minutes/CL (D) once/day as if Alter Self.
- Young adult – greater duration: any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration 1 day/CL (D) once/day as if Beast Shape III;
specifically human form (medium), duration 1 hour/CL (D) once/day as if Alter Self.
- Adult – more forms: any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration 1 day/CL (D) once/day as if Beast Shape III;
any small or medium humanoid form, duration 1 hour/CL (D) once/day as if Alter Self.
- Mature adult – greater duration: any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration 1 day/CL (D) once/day as if Beast Shape III;
any small or medium humanoid form, duration 1 day/CL (D) once/day as if Alter Self.
- Old – more forms: any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration 1 day/CL (D) once/day as if modified Beast Shape III*;
any humanoid form (own size to wyrmling –1), duration 1 day/CL (D) once/day as if modified Alter Self*;
* extrapolate size bonuses and penalties for forms outside the listed size options.
- Very old – greater duration: any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration permanent (D) once/day as if modified Beast Shape III;
any humanoid form (own size to wyrmling –1), duration 1 day/CL (D) once/day as if modified Alter Self.
- Ancient – greater duration: any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration permanent (D) once/day as if modified Beast Shape III;
any humanoid form (own size to wyrmling –1), duration permanent (D) once/day as if modified Alter Self.
- Wyrms – flexible forms: any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration permanent (D) once/day as if modified Beast Shape III;
any humanoid form (own size to wyrmling –1), duration permanent (D) once/day as if modified Alter Self;
may switch animal forms, or else humanoid forms, as a swift action, as if modified Adjustable Polymorph.
Once the wyrm has ceased to be that type of creature, their ability to assume forms of that type has been used up for that day.
- Great Wyrms – flexible forms & greater frequency:
any animal (own size to wyrmling –1), duration permanent (D) & at will, as if modified Beast Shape III;
any humanoid form (own size to wyrmling –1), duration permanent (D) & at will, as if modified Alter Self;
may alter their form multiple times as a swift action, as if applying Adjustable Polymorph to any form they possess – including an Elemental Body – switching back-and-forth between types at will.
EtA: One other tidbit I can throw in now... Minkaian dragons are three times as old as typical dragons per age category.
Oops, my redo for the dragons got slightly sidelined... Next week!
I did a re-format of the Shapeshifting ability over here.
No substantive changes, but it's easier to read. I'd love comments!