Desire advice for a kineticist

[Tyal-Kelvar]

This might be a bit of a rule question as well as general advice. See, I am playing a tiny sized kineticist in a campaign (Terrible idea, turns out armor giving half armor bonus is a bit of an issue) and have an interesting choice ahead of me.

My primary element is water, and I might of found a quirky thing to do with the rules that may or may not. If I pick water again with expanded elements, it is then valid to pick with expanded defense, right? Double dipping in shroud of water, to get the armor and shield options? Is there any reason this does not work?

If it does work, is it even worth doing? If I were to not do it, I'd be getting earth as a secondary, aether as tertiary element, getting expanded defense for both. Is double dipping in shroud of water better than branching out into multiple elements?

[Saethori]

The rules don't actually strictly prohibit you from using expanded defense to double up, but it seems very cheesy.

I don't think it's worth it in the long run, however. The added armor isn't going to be that much of an improvement over something like an enchanted mithril chain shirt, and you have a decent amount of AC simply from the shield and the size.

This is especially relevant since you will be a ranged combatant, and not likely to have a problem with physical attacks. If arrows and the like are an issue, the air defense can help.

[Sundakan]

It doesn't work for...literally every reason. There is no possible way you can read the rules, RAW or RAI that gives you the effect you want.

It's the same class feature. You can't have it twice. It's not two class features, or even a single feature with a choice, it is an ability that lets you choose (every time you use it) whether you want an Armor or Shield bonus.

You started with Water. You automatically gained "Shroud of Water". That is your defense.

The Talent you want says this: Choose an element you selected with expanded element. You gain that element's defense wild talent. You can take this wild talent multiple times, choosing a different element each time.

Grats, you gained something you already had. Have fun with that worthless Talent I guess.

[Milo v3]

Also, tiny armour doesn't halve the AC bonus. It halves the price (and tenth's the weight).

[Deadbeat Doom]

Milo v3 wrote:

Also, tiny armour doesn't halve the AC bonus. It halves the price (and tenth's the weight).

Armor for Unusual Creatures

Armor wrote:

Tiny or smaller* ×1/2 ×1/10 ×1 ×1/10

* Divide armor bonus by 2.

[Philo Pharynx]

I would go with Aether secondary and Earth tertiary. Aether's defense works against anything that does hit point damage. Earth's defense doesn't protect you against many forms of damage. Just weapons. Aether also protects you against secondary effects if it stops all of the damage.

While the Aether defense is limited, by the time it goes down, your party should have reduced the number of combatants. It will be up for the next fight unless you are ambushed or you have people trying to squeeze lots of fights into minute-per-level spells. If you loot the room and bodies normally it comes back up.

Plus spending burn on enhancing Aether's shield means that you stay about the same in effective hp. (including stat boosts)

Aether also has better utility talents.

[Burnscar]

Note that there's a distinction between armor, and armor bonuses.

Armor for tiny creatures provide half armor bonus.

This does not mean that armor bonuses that do not derive from armor are halved for tiny creatures.

So mage armor, ironbeard, shroud of water, bracers of armor etc. still provide their normal effects, since they're not armor.

[Tyal-Kelvar]

Saethori: Yes, it is cheesy, hence why I told the GM that even if he allowed it I'd still check the forums for issues. Still, mithril chainshirts are only 2 AC base for a tiny character and 30 ft range most of the time is worryingly close to melee. Especially in a party with only one melee character plus an animal companion.

Sundakan: I'm not sure the logic behind your reasoning. Characters can stack sneak attack from different classes, even though they are class features of the same name. Rules are clear that one can have channel energy from multiple sources (They don't stack, counting as seperate, so it'd be weaker but more uses). Expanded Element specifically says one can pick their primary element again with it, which then allows expanded defense to work.

Deadbeat Doom & Burnscar: It's a terrifying rule that makes water shroud for armor instead of shield worth while. Slightly. But what I am not sure about is if it halves shield bonus from shields, and if it rounds down or up. Due to using automatic bonus progression, the advanced version to indicate no expectations of any magic items at all, many magical armor boosts aren't going to be easy to get. Except mage armor, because a party member is planning to brew lots of potions of it for some reason I don't fully understand.

Philo Pharynx: Tempting advice. Aether defense is certainly looking best and my plans for wild talents don't seem to include many earth ones... just I was going for earth first for a useful composite blast. Is defense more important than offense here? If so, maybe I should of picked aether as my first element instead of water.