Unarmed Fighters, Brawlers, Monks and a Noob

[ApoY2k]

I am starting a new campaign soon and want to try something new for me - unarmed combat. Upon investigating my options, I already came across many discussions about how monks are actually quite badly designed and one should opt for an unarmed fighter / brawler instead. But obviously theres always two sides to everything. And I can't really decide if they are outdated or whatnot.

I am not really a "minmaxer" but I also don't want to start something and then realize halfway through the campaign that I can't actually help all that much in combat after all.

All what I read confused me more than it helped me, because I started out with one option (Monk) and now I'm looking at three (see title) and all the combinations thereof.

So, what should I choose? I want my guy to be an unarmed fighter, so much is fixed. I'm thinking either the classical monk type (as in agile, quick), or more in the direction of street/cage fighter in terms of endurance and strength.

Think classical monk stereotype over UFC fighters to brad pitt in snatch as a range of what would fit for my idea. All I need is what class to do either of these in.

PS: My GM said there are no hard restrictions on which class from what rulebook we can use (at least for me, as a more expirienced player (not pathfinder, but in general))

[d'Eon]

Classic monk style calls for Classic Monk (has issues), Unchained Monk (my preference), or I'm going to drop another class option on you, the Esoteric Magus.

Esoterics get Improved Unarmed Strikes, deal unarmed damage as a Monk of their level, can use their Arcane Pool to boost their unarmed strikes (nicely avoiding the Amulet of Mighty Fist's absurd cost), treat their Arcane Pool as a Ki Pool for any feats or abilities that use Ki, and can tattoo spells on themselves to use as 1/day spell-like abilities.

[Petrus Caietanus]

Glad you didn't put the unarmed wapriest and the sacred fist in the middle of it.
:v

[Captain Morgan]

Really comes down to what you want to do. Brawler is a really solid punchy class, but it's big feature isn't very newb friendly, since it rewards having an encyclopedic knowledge of every combat feat in the game. The mutagenic mauler archetype trades that feature out for a really solid bonus, which you can ingest and rock out with. Makes it so you really just need one version of the sheet with mutagen, and one without, and you are good to go. The downside is you'll be much weaker in situations where you can't mutagen.

The unchained Monk is much better balanced than a core monk without archetypes and pretty beginner friendly. It's main feature, aside from punching, is ki powers. If you are OK with some mystical flavor, you could do worse.

Finally there is the Fighter. It has a couple solid archetypes for unarmed combat, but vanilla also has advantages with advanced weapon combat. Fighter's take some mastery to build well, but are very simple to actually play because they have almost no resources to track and their bonuses are always active.

This all assumes you don't want to get really crazy with spells or rage powers.

[d'Eon]

The key thing for the Unchained Monk for me is the change to Flurry of Misses. A full BAB progression, and an extra attack or two at full bonus is way better and less complicated than the Core's weird half 3/4, half full BAB and pseudo-Two-Weapon-Fighting. Ki points will kill you though. Extra Ki is worth two levels of Monk right there, and your only quick way to get it back is at level 20. Better buy a ki mat or ring of ki mastery.

[ApoY2k]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback. And now I even have more options than before, haha... oh well.

The esoteric magus / unchained monk both read pretty cool. I just have to convince my GM to allow them, because I unforunately cannot find any german resources online on them (we specifically play in german and hence any resource not in german will provide problems...).

I don't really have "encyclopedic knowledge of every combat feat in the game", so I guess the other alternative leaves me with a classic fighter/archetype that just picks the right feats.

As we will do a "normal campaign" I need to be well-rounded enough to keep up with standard classes I guess. Is the unarmed fighter (which sounds fitting enough) not viable?

[The Shaman]

Eh, it and the brawler archetype (there is a figher archetype called brawler) are okayish imo, but I think it depends on two things:

- does the DM allow you to take advanced weapon training (from the weapon master's handbook) for the groups they sort of have weapon training in?
- is the combat stamina system from Pathfinder Unchained allowed?

Both of these things can make a big difference for fighters. Without them, they are...eh, not that great - they have little to do outside of a fight, and are not that much better than anyone else in a fight.

[Selvaxri]

You don't really need an "encyclopedic knowledge of combat feats" to make the Brawler function- you just need to narrow down the feats you'd likely be using given the situation.

Monks are a fine class for a new player to use when experimenting with Unarmed combatants.
I don't like how Unchained Monks are just the Qinggong v.2. Core monk can have fun with their Archetypes.

There is a Kineticist archetype that prefers melee combat.

[ApoY2k]

The Shaman wrote:

- does the DM allow you to take advanced weapon training (from the weapon master's handbook) for the groups they sort of have weapon training in?

- is the combat stamina system from Pathfinder Unchained allowed?

Well, generally my DM allows most things if they only make the player better, without making everybody else worse.

I haven't yet read about the two things you ask, but if they are things that I need to track and the other players are unaffected by it, I guess it won't be a problem. But thanks for hinting.

I found a pretty extensive guide for an unchained monk which seems like a good starting point.

[Divvox2]

It depends on your play style. A brawler is probably the best class if you want a build that can be pretty good at nearly anything (and is my favorite choice). The ability to grab any "Improved X" combat maneuver feat early on means you can adapt and target any weakness in your opponent. You get enough feats to very nearly keep up with a fighter, and a little careful choice in what feats you settle on can leave you with an extremely strong build.

To me, Monk and Fighter lend themselves to focusing on a couple maneuvers. You have to make a choice and make tactical decisions around that choice during a fight. All classes can do solidly when it comes to damage output. Monk has more mobility and defensive capabilities and brawler has unparalleled flexibility. A fighter kind of lands in the middle because it has the most feats to work with, but none of the shiny toys.

Personally I find I have the most fun being able to walk into a fight and having my choice of options on how to take them down. I play PFS and even at level 13 I haven't run into issues adapting to most fights using martial flexibility.

My choices led me to relying on Snake Style for defense, and at level 13 I have a +34 Sense Motive, which means I usually avoid at least 1 attack a round, and touch attacks are never going to hit me if I don't want them to, I carry potions to make up for nasty conditions/flight issues, and rely on my ability to drop upwards of 260 damage during a full attack to take down opponents before they can drop me. It's a riskier approach than a monk's ability to get astronomical ACs, but I find it massively more entertaining and exciting.

[Bob_Loblaw]

I really prefer the Talented Monk from Rogue Genius Games. It really allows you to build the monk you want to play.

[ApoY2k]

Divvox2 wrote:

Personally I find I have the most fun being able to walk into a fight and having my choice of options on how to take them down. I play PFS and even at level 13 I haven't run into issues adapting to most fights using martial flexibility.

My choices led me to relying on Snake Style for defense, and at level 13 I have a +34 Sense Motive, which means I usually avoid at least 1 attack a round, and touch attacks are never going to hit me if I don't want them to, I carry potions to make up for nasty conditions/flight issues, and rely on my ability to drop upwards of 260 damage during a full attack to take down opponents before they can drop me. It's a riskier approach than a monk's ability to get astronomical ACs, but I find it massively more entertaining and exciting.

Is that using the Brawler or a Monk? Can't quite make it out from your description.

[Protoman]

ApoY2k wrote:

Divvox2 wrote:

Personally I find I have the most fun being able to walk into a fight and having my choice of options on how to take them down. I play PFS and even at level 13 I haven't run into issues adapting to most fights using martial flexibility.

My choices led me to relying on Snake Style for defense, and at level 13 I have a +34 Sense Motive, which means I usually avoid at least 1 attack a round, and touch attacks are never going to hit me if I don't want them to, I carry potions to make up for nasty conditions/flight issues, and rely on my ability to drop upwards of 260 damage during a full attack to take down opponents before they can drop me. It's a riskier approach than a monk's ability to get astronomical ACs, but I find it massively more entertaining and exciting.

Is that using the Brawler or a Monk? Can't quite make it out from your description.

I believe Brawler with martial flexibility.

[RaizielDragon]

I also recommend the Brawler. As has been said, Martial Flexibility can seem intimidating with all of the feats to choose from, but if you focus in on the few things you want to be good at, you have a better idea of what to use in a certain situation without having to know the entire list of available feats. Or use the Mutagen, as was recommended. Being without it isn't extremely crippling, and by the time there is a big difference, it will be lasting over an hour anyway, which should cover most fights in a day unless you have long gaps in-between, like during overland random encounters or if stopping after every room in a dungeon to check thoroughly for traps/treasure. Eventually you can make some extras in advance just in case anyway.

[Derek Dalton]

Monks are a solid class if done right. Introduction of Style feats added to their abilities. Unarmed fighter and Brawler are trying to do the same things no where near as good as a well designed Monk. Two high stats and you are set Dex and Wis. Weapon Finesse and you are set. You start at low levels with a Monk Weapon for higher damage then your fists then switch to unarmed damage when it becomes high.

[Atarlost]

The classic monk isn't bad if well built with archetypes and style feats, but it's not a class for new players. It can be built to the ranger/paladin level, though those usually aren't unarmed builds.

The unmonk is harder to mess up and slightly better at fighting, but gets charged ki for what the classic monk gets free and has a weaker will save. I don't know about you, but when I think monk the first things that comes to mind are calligraphy, patience, and willpower so the unmonk is a flat no go for me.

The brawler is weak willed, but doesn't pretend to be a monk so it's only a mechanical issue. Martial Flexibility gives the same advantage as vancian casting in being able to try things without locking yourself into them. Be careful about not wasting your permanent feats, though.

Unarmed Fighter is basically obsolete. It's a dip for a style feat, unarmed strike, and some exotic proficiencies when pursuing another class.

[Imbicatus]

Bloodrager is a solid option as well. The bloody knuckled rowdy gains monk unarmed strike damage, and the spell conduit can cast spells on unarmed strikes, having even better action economy than a magus.

[My Self]

For Brawler, the strongest combo options require lots of system mastery, but you can be pretty powerful without it. If you took Power Attack and Combat Expertise/Dirty Fighting, you basically have all the combat maneuvers open via Martial Flexibility. Assuming you have these feats, you basically just need a list somewhat like the following:
Proficiency Feats - Basically lets you use anything as a weapon
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Catch Off-Guard
Throw Anything

Damage Feats - Lets you hit more accurately and/or harder
Weapon Focus
-Weapon Specialization
-Greater Weapon Focus
Improvised Weapon Mastery
Dedicated Adversary

Maneuver Feats - Lets you toss people around
Improved X maneuver
-Greater X maneuver

Brawler is a good class. It's tougher than the regular Monk and far less mystical. Try it at least once.

[BadBird]

Snakebite Striker Brawler with Improved Feint, Greater Feint and Two-Weapon Feint can be pretty interesting, since you can work Sneak Attack into pretty much everything without much effort.

One of the biggest advantages to an actual Monk is that it's much easier to get Dragon Ferocity.

[Divvox2]

ApoY2k wrote:

Divvox2 wrote:

Personally I find I have the most fun being able to walk into a fight and having my choice of options on how to take them down. I play PFS and even at level 13 I haven't run into issues adapting to most fights using martial flexibility.

My choices led me to relying on Snake Style for defense, and at level 13 I have a +34 Sense Motive, which means I usually avoid at least 1 attack a round, and touch attacks are never going to hit me if I don't want them to, I carry potions to make up for nasty conditions/flight issues, and rely on my ability to drop upwards of 260 damage during a full attack to take down opponents before they can drop me. It's a riskier approach than a monk's ability to get astronomical ACs, but I find it massively more entertaining and exciting.

Is that using the Brawler or a Monk? Can't quite make it out from your description.

Brawler is correct, sorry for the confusion. A lot of folks talk about complicated use of Martial Flexibility, but here is the easy list of things to be aware of for this:

Requirements:
-Combat Expertise
-Power Attack

Feats you can take:
-All Improved/Greater Combat Maneuver feats (know how to use these things!) Maybe further down specific trees if you want to specialize a bit.
-Weapon Focus (or improved), Weapon Specialization (or greater) to max output/odds.
-Blind-Fighting and at level 10, greater blind-fighting
-The Step-Up feat tree, or Pin-Down (to deal with pesky mages! Grab the feat, walk up to them, and ready an action to knock 'em in the face when they start casting)

Past that? Poke around and find fun things. I've found I really don't need to know much past that. The only exceptions are in REALLY crazy situations. I focused my feats on common prereqs for combat feats (see above), weapon focus (unarmed), weapon spec (unarmed), snake style tree, combat reflexes, improved initiative, and I think Improved Disarm (because I found when I could best use that I needed to do it).

[Captain Morgan]

While you don't NEED to know all of the feats, the Brawler definitely rewards a large awareness of feat trees and prerequisites. There's a good guide out there. Google wombo combo Brawler guide and you should be able to find it. I wouldn't point someone to it, other than the mutagenic mauler, for their first character. Rather, I'd suggest they build a monk or fighter so they get a little first hand experience with combat and playing with feats. Keep in mind, our TC has translation issues to deal with on top of being new.