Hello!
I have a question concerning retraining and secondary elements.
Under Wild Talents it says:
"At 6th, 10th, and 16th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her utility wild talents with another wild talent of the same level or lower. She can't replace a wild talent that she used to qualify for another of her wild talents."
Under Infusions it says:
"At 5th, 11th, and 17th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her infusions with another infusion of the same effective spell level or lower. She can't replace an infusion that she used to qualify for another of her wild talents."
So, if I have chosen Water as primary and Aether as secondary element, can I exchange a Universal level 4 talent (say, Expanded defense) for an Aether level 4 talent (Telekinetic Maneuvers) at level 10?
They are the same level, so should be okay, but I wanted to be sure as Aether is a secondary element and I only qualify for talents 4 levels lower (talent level 3 max at CL 10). Is there a difference from using doing this verses using the retrain rules (where you train with someone one level higher)?
As written, nothing keeps you from replacing one of your universal or water wild talents or infusions with one for aether, so that should be fine.
There is a difference between this sort of retraining and utilizing the retrain rules; primarily, in that this is actually possible. There are no rules for retraining kineticist abilities as they did not exist at the time of the retraining rules.
If retraining was to be allowed, then it still costs time and money to retrain, even if you do it yourself.
I think Mark, the designer of this class, said you totally can and that it's a good way to get talents you want.
Thanks for the answers!
If I where to use the retraining rules (where you pay for it) I guess you would need to be able to take the talent you retrain into, as it states:
"When you use retraining to replace some aspect of your character, you must meet all prerequisites, requirements, and considerations for whatever you're trying to acquire."
I understand that Paizo can't update every rule for every new class, so I look at the mentioned classes under retraining as guidelines. But, when it comes to wild talents, should they be retrained the same way a Magus retrains Arcana (5 days) or as spells for a Sorcerer (2 days spell level)?
Could I retrain an Element if I retrain every aspect?
I understand that nobody knows for sure, just want your thoughts.
I would retrain as a sorcerer, and changing elements by swapping out absolutely all of your talents makes sense, with the added delay as if switching bloodline; after all, altering which of the elements favor you is no easy task.
Personally, I would argue otherwise, arguing that your element would be more like an Oracle's Mystery. Which is to say you can retrain the optional elements it offers, but not the feature itself.
Guess I'll discuss it with my DM. I don't think I wanna change my element, was mostly curious what people thought about it.
For the talents, I'll think I'll just go for 5 days, no matter the level of the talent.
Thank you for responding!
I want to know if the -4 levels still apply for retraining to an expanded element. E.g. if I expand into aether can I trade something of equal level for telekinetic maneuvers at level 10?
Texas Snyper wrote: I want to know if the -4 levels still apply for retraining to an expanded element. E.g. if I expand into aether can I trade something of equal level for telekinetic maneuvers at level 10? The -4 levels for expanded element talent choices still applies to the talent swap.
so if doing the free swap you get in class you are not restricted to the -4 for you extra element.
No, you're still restricted by the -4.
Texas Snyper and OP's example of trying to get expanded element (aether) telekinetic maneuvers (spell level 4) at the 10th level swap won't work because his kineticist only counts as a level 6 aether kineiticst.
Sorry I didn't see the example given at the OP's post.
Despite Telekinetic Maneuvers being same level as (example given of) Expanded Defense, the kineticist in question never qualified for Telekinetic Maneuvers at level 10.
Mark's post specifically gives the example of replacing low level primary element talents for low level expanded element talents.
Well, I guess Marks post shows that you can change the element, but it does not answer the question if the -4 levels count or not.
As posted in the original post, it is not answered under Wild talents, as it only says it has to be the same level (for wild talents) and efficient spell level (for infusions).
The -4 levels does not change either of those as far as I can see.
The -4 penalty applies to see if one even qualifies for the expanded element talent choice, whether it's picked up normally from regular progression, free swaps at the specified utiliy/infusion talent levels, or with the Extra Wild Talent feat (it uses -2 spell level but basically the same as -4 kineticist levels). If you don't count as a level 8 kineticist for expanded element (aether), you can't pick up Telekinetic Maneuvers at level 10 in any way.
The thing is that there is no way to know if the swaps you get at 5th, 6th, 10th, 11th, 16th and 17th is meant as a way to get some talents earlier for the secondary element.
As it is written, it says only that it has to be the same level/spell level and that it has to be universal or your own element.
I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that I would like to see where that is stated.
"at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, a kineticist selects a new utility wild talent from the list of options available to her."
You pick from talents available to you.
You got expanded element (aether)? Excellent you expanded your list of options available to you.
"If the kineticist's expanded element is different from her primary element, she treats her kineticist level as 4 levels lower for the purpose of determining which wild talents she can learn from her expanded element."
Your kineticist levels are 4 lower to determine which aether elements are available to you.
At level 10, your expanded element (aether) kineticist level is 6. That's too low to qualify for Telekinetic Maneuvers (level 4 talent), so it isn't available to you.
He makes a very convincing argument
Chess Pwn wrote: He makes a very convincing argument Sadly, he does :)
Still would have wished that they would have worded it a bit different.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I know that when it comes to retraining feats, you can give up a feat with no prerequisites to get a feat whose prerequisites you did not meet at the time you picked up the feat to be replaced.
So, give up Dodge in exchange for Dazing Assault, for example, even though you couldn't have taken the latter at 1st-level (but can now, now that you meet the BAB requirement).
I don't see why the same wouldn't be true of wild talents. Retrain your weaker ones for more powerful ones at higher level.
I think using retraining Wild Talents with the same rules as for feats sounds a bit to powerful.
But, talking about retraining feats, retraining Extra Wild Talents are a pretty good idea!
Extra Wild Talent makes you able to take talents -2 levels to your primary element, so by retraining a feat into Extra Wild Talent at level 10, I can actually get Telekinetic Maneuvers at level 10 after all!
I think there are a lot of good talents at level 5 and 6, so think I will retrain some feats at level 12 and 14 :)
It's -2 spell levels or -4 character levels.
Oh man, I read that as 2 levels lower, it makes that feat quite crappy. That means there is no way to get the decent mid tier abilities until level 14, even with retraining feats.
Makes me wonder if there is even a reason to take to change element at level 7. Could just ta a new one at level 15 and retrain a bunch of stuff.
Hubbaman wrote: I think using retraining Wild Talents with the same rules as for feats sounds a bit to powerful.
But, talking about retraining feats, retraining Extra Wild Talents are a pretty good idea!
Extra Wild Talent makes you able to take talents -2 levels to your primary element, so by retraining a feat into Extra Wild Talent at level 10, I can actually get Telekinetic Maneuvers at level 10 after all!
I think there are a lot of good talents at level 5 and 6, so think I will retrain some feats at level 12 and 14 :)
Quote:
Under Wild Talents it says:
"At 6th, 10th, and 16th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her utility wild talents with another wild talent of the same level or lower. She can't replace a wild talent that she used to qualify for another of her wild talents."
Under Infusions it says:
"At 5th, 11th, and 17th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her infusions with another infusion of the same effective spell level or lower. She can't replace an infusion that she used to qualify for another of her wild talents."
Kineticist often has to pick a few low level talents and infusion at early level because there simply arn't any better ones, but at level 5, 6, 11, 13, 16, 17 these can be re-arranged for some serious replacement-fu action.
For example, Aether can pick Extended Range and Pushing at lvl 1 and 3, then switch Pushing to the slightly more powerful Bowling infusion at level 5.
But an even better example happens when you start being able to get wild talent feat (such at level 6): Aether want two great talents, Self Telekinesis and Telekinetic Invisibility
So, begin by taking one with the regular talent you get, then, replace a lower level talent like Kinetic healer for the other one and pick up Kinetic Healer again as a wild talent (picked up as human 1/6 wild talent favored class bonus).
At level 10, there are several juicy level 5 talents such as Reactive Touchsight, Greater self telekinesis, grappling and Wall, you can do the same replacement-fu to achieve them all by level 11.
And so on...
Well, you can only exchange infusions for same effective level or lower and same level or lower for wild talents.
So that won't really work as the rules are written.
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