Hello Advice Column!
I have been perusing my archive of builds and noticed that I have been ignoring Martials... and I've been advised before that I shouldn't always bring a 9-Spell level caster to a campaign, sometimes outright threatened to "limited to being a Fighter" (their words, not mine).
I am seeking advice on archetype-stacking Fighter. The class features I wish to replace entirely are Bravery and Advanced Armor Training, and would like to have a modified Weapon Training feature that focuses on either one family, or one weapon only. Armor and Weapon Mastery are likewise expendable as frankly, I do not expect this build to ever be in a campaign that'll reach capstone 20. In essence it's a Fighter whose only retains some of its bonus feats.
Weapon/Armor Proficiencies are likewise expendable and I am willing to part with some of the bonus feats as some archetypes have locked options. Eventually Mithral Armors help mitigate a lot of the inconveniences, as I've come to love Mithral Kikko.
I looked at Ustalavic-Duelist/Siegebreaker/Dervish of Dawn as a stack but it's illegal because of the mandatory feats at level one, though one can houserule away their first feat choices in favor of one of the overlapping mandatory LVL 1 feats.
Seems crazy, I know, but Fighter as plenty of Feats that pass along its career path that one can still go for an interesting CMB playstyle that can not only DPS, but also debuff/control enemies a la Trip, Disarm, etc, and heck, even fun styles like shield bashing.
Be it as a polearm-wielder, a crossbowman, or someone using a rapier foolishly on an STR build, I seek a functional (not optimal, just synergistic) Fighter that does not fall into the traditional armored brute mold. I can roleplay well enough to in story mode, though having 2-3 skill/level is gonna hurt versatility.
The typical races I play are Gnome and Aasimar (small), though I do have a fondness for Fetchlings, and would like to RP a Strix someday. Humans I understand are about the best race to play PF, but RPing I prefer to take advantage of the diversity that's on Golarion.
Thanks for reading, and if you have any input, then please drop in.
What you described is a Weapon Master Fighter to the T.
I don't think it stacks with anything, but it trades out what you say you don't want and expands only on one weapon.
What you described is a Weapon Master Fighter to the T.
I don't think it stacks with anything, but it trades out what you say you don't want and expands only on one weapon.
You're right... wow, it's so simply pure. Thx for that. Wonder if anyone else found a stack recipe that works too.
The Lore Warden is the king of CMB.
The Learned Duelist is a very interesting archetype, particularly for dex-based characters.
Also, Fighters are quite possibly the most multiclass-friendly class there is, so there's lots of room to play around with them. Like crossing one level of Unchained Monk with Learned Duelist to flurry a Monk sword with a combat style and wisdom AC, or taking one level of Cleric with a Domain Power that doesn't care about level like Chaos Touch or Gentle Rest, and then working Domain Strike into the build along with wielding a weapon, or taking two levels of Ninja and Extra Ki to gain some Vanishing Trick. The possibilities are endless.
Weapon Master is good but giving up Bravery means you get locked out of what is simply the best defensive bonus the Fighter can get, which is Armed Bravery. Bravery to Will saves means you end up with more than enough protection ob your weakest save, and it doubles up against fear effects, some of which can equally shut you down entirely.
In addition, while Weapon Master has some interesting stuff for a crit fighter build (take a falchion and you are golden), I think some of the features are slightly redundant. How reliably will you encounter people using your own weapon? (Natural attackers would be the only ones who could benefit here) Are you definitely crit focused? Lots of things that I think stifle your diversity unnecessarily. For that matter, every fighter focuses on one type of weapon, but you don't yse only one weapon. You should have a ranged weapon on backup.
But since you want to build a fighter that presumably isn't a big dumb brute, consider a finesse build TWF. You can't get Dex to Damage, but you can get Trained Grace to bolster your damage and allow you minimal Strength investment while still scaling your damage as you level. With a Weapon Master, this increases even faster, and can benefit from those great features by using reasonably high crit range weapons. You can put out decent, reliable DPS and benefit from being single weapon focused. Also, you only need to heavily invest into Dex for reliable attack rolls, so you can increase other ability scores to help you elsewhere. More Wisdom for saves, more Int for skill points, or more Charisma for...Charisma stuff....
Anyway, here is a snapshot build
Dex>Con>Wis>Str>Int>Cha for stat build, feel free to alter as you see fit.
Feat Progression to 11th level:
1st Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting (Weapon Focus here if you go Human)
2nd Weapon Focus or Piranha Attack/Power Attack or Quick Draw
3rd Iron Will or Quick Draw/Take your bonus in your prefered weapon
4th Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Grace
5th Weapon Specialization
6th Improved TWF
7th If you still haven't taken Iron Will, do so now, otherwise Toughness or grab another Advanced Weapon Training that takes your fancy
8th Greater Weapon Specialization
9th Improved Critical
10th Critical Focus
11th Greater TWF
Someone could suggest a better build but I think this one is pretty decent but feat intense. You also don't use heavy armour and stick to a single weapon. One problem you might encounter is DR. If that happens, grab Hammer the Gap instead of some other feat at 7th and you should be fine.
@G-TW: Thx, you put some good concepts out with that. Too bad THF can't proc off DEX, otherwise that'd be a fun style for me to go off. Find a reach weapon that has trip and have fun with it.
Funny how you bring up Falchion, because before my time apparently Falchion Fred was a thing at one point and irritated one of my ex-DMs to no end as a prime example of munchkinning.
It was good to learn more about AAT and AWT; I'm definitely going to be studying those plug-and-play options.
@G-TW: Thx, you put some good concepts out with that. Too bad THF can't proc off DEX, otherwise that'd be a fun style for me to go off. Find a reach weapon that has trip and have fun with it.
Funny how you bring up Falchion, because before my time apparently Falchion Fred was a thing at one point and irritated one of my ex-DMs to no end as a prime example of munchkinning.
It was good to learn more about AAT and AWT; I'm definitely going to be studying those plug-and-play options.
Unfortunately Finesse builds benefit the most from some kind additional damage boost or going Dex-to-Damage. The first is usually precision damage, like Swashbuckler's or Sneak Attack. Fighter gets only Weapon Training and that is limited. However, Fighter gets Trained Grace to help them there. As for Dex-to-Damage, there are several intense limitations to the feats that provide it, and it is usually very feat hungry and limiting. And no two-handed fighting unless you go Dervish Dancer, because that feat allows you to two-hand the scimitar.
You do have a method of getting Dex to Hit with any Two-Handed Weapon by gaining proficiency with Elven Curve Blades and getting Finesse Fighter. You can Dex-to-Hit with a Greatsword, and with an Elven Branched Spear do it with polearms. You can do all this by being an elf. Can have some cool applications. Even take Trained Grace at 9th level to get that sweet damage boost.
I'm a lot like you, actually. I play so many casters that I need to diversify, so I've taken to mastering the most underappreciated class in Pathfinder. The humble fighter. One thing I have learnt about fighters is that they are entirely focus based and making them the best at something is the only way to build them. This might seem like Fighters are one-dimensional but I think it makes them more reliable. The numbers getting higher only means you are more certain to achieve your characters build focus, so don't feel bad about being optimal. It is the nature of the beast.
It is, however, been recently made the best martial in pathfinder via the Advanced Weapon and Armor Training options IMHO, as both have insane abilities opened to them. The only class that I would think could outpace them is Vigilante on certain builds (see that TWF build? They can outpace that with the same methods and feats thanks to Lethal Grace unless the fighter gets Dueling Gloves), as that class has even better features than Fighter and more skill points. Thankfully, the nature of Vigilantes make them incompatible with certain campaigns, and therefore you won't see them too often.
Whatever you do, make it fun and disregard numbers with RP. A fighter build is only for combat. A fighter is anyone you want them to be. And usually the underdog in PF so enjoy them for what they are. Munchkinning is honestly sometimes the way fighters get a leg up over other classes, particularly in harsh campaigns. While sure, they end up with big numbers, Wizards and Sorcerers do that with a flick of the wrist and do that huge damage every round if they want. And have all their other spells. And features. And feats. And just summon in a dozen mini-Fighters if the main fighter goes down like it is nothing. Yet I hear less complaining about them because it is just accepted.
Fighters, like all martials and martial-likes (looking at kineticist here) put everything into just achieving what they can. A DM has no reason to view martials as being overpowered because it took so much more effort to get to that point. A fighter that can make a DM shake their head with disbelief should be viewed more positively as that fighter really must be a good build.
I get that it stifles diversity in builds, but sometimes you just want to hit things hard, and fighters were never diverse to begin with, they are focused. So some things just need to be taken on the chin.
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Well, if you want a multi-archetype fighter with an off switch you can go with the Mutation Warrior/Siegebreaker. Tons o CMB paired with a mutagen for +4 STR/CON/DEX
Or Mutation Warrior/Martial Master for the mutagen paired with switchable combat feats 3 + .5 Fighter level times/day
Or Mutation Warrior/Blackjack for the mutagen paired with hte ability to (eventually) share teamwork feats with allies
it also combines with eldritch guardian...I like mutation warrior
Let me go a little off fucus here, would it have to be a fighter? A ranger gets bonus feats that focus specifically on one fighting style or weapon, matching the theme you mentioned going for in a fighter. This is in addition to being a fighter on steroids with the guide archetype.
Here is a build for the same character built as both a fighter and a ranger. They both focus on two weapon fighting with heavy shields. In both cases you will be building towards living monolith (the prestige class) so that you can engage in knockback cheese.
The plan: enlarge yourself with living monolith so that you can chain knockback using shield slam. Ranger is far preferable here due to its bonus feats coming 4-5 levels earlier than the fighter.
Arren the fighter: human fighter with the BRAWLER (<--- take this for god sakes) archetype
1. TWF, combat reflexes, iron will
2. Improved shield bash
3. Power attack
4. Improved bull rush
5. Endurance
6. (one level dip into living monolith comes here)
7. Shield slam, greater bullrush/improved two weapon fighting (your choice)
Arren the human ranger: guide archetype is a huge upgrade to the base class
1. TWF, improved shield bash
2. Shield slam
3. Endurance
4.
5. Combat reflexes
6. (dip here)
7. Shield mastery, improved two weapon fighting
Ranger build comes online at lvl 2 instead of lvl 7, and just does the same job but better.
How to chain knockback:
Once enlarged, you will threaten anyone medium sized who tries to approach you. Your attack of opportunity (a shield slam) will push them back out again. You can chain knockback as many times as you have attacks of opportunity.
Oh yes, this current thread is discussing possible builds using Fighter. I am not seeking to be competitive, but synergistic enough within the build (IE one or two main focuses that complement/support each other). I may have to go with Eldritch Guardian for the additional skill points and superior version of Bravery. STR-build, on a small template no less (Aasimars!) and utilizing polearms, like a Fauchard. A small character whacking opponents two squares away is an amusing concept, now time to back the fluff with some crunch, like an ideal snack. The additional attacks from TWF is nice, particularly if you have boosters attached to each swing, but I like fewer, more accurate and hard hitting effects. If the DM is waging a challenging campaign, that extra +2 or more compared to another build adds up over time as opponent AC ramps with your progression. In easy campaigns it turns to Gunslinger Syndrome, where instead of rolling to hit, the Player feels like they are simply rolling not to misfire. I am the Player that knows the more I roll, the more 1s I drop.
The other pure Martial I'd be interested in is the Slayer. It seems less appealing ever since they Unchained Rogue. Cavalier is another pure Martial I've helped other Players design builds for before as well. Playing small characters, I typically have no problems bringing along my ACs, and for the bigger ones, that's what the Squeezing condition is for.
As a Player, I detest many situational class features. Thus, as a Ranger, whilst I'd hem and haw over retaining my meager spell list, I would entirely trade out Favored Enemy for a constant bonus, same with Favored Terrain. In fact so many of the nature flavored features that yeah, I'd end up with a Slayer at the end ^_^.
Yeah, if you have access to the Weapon Master's Handbook, then possibilities are hugely expanded.
If going for a unique theme, an Elven Fighter can use Elven Battle Focus to replace STR with INT on damage rolls, letting a highly intelligent character deal really savage damage. The side-benefit is that they're getting a far, far larger pool of skill points for everything from stealth to intimidate.
Speaking of high INT, taking one level of Wizard lets you use Knowledge is Power to add INT to all CMB rolls, plus grants some INT based powers, like the Prescience power.
If using a rapier, or two rapiers with Effortless Lace, you can take the Amateur Swashbuckler feat and possibly the Extra Panache feat to gain a Panache pool. While Dodging Panache can be useful, the real benefit is using a Blue Scarf Swordmaster's Flair to make your rapiers have bonus reach. There's also some Panache feats that might be useful, like Pommel Strike.
The point of guide ranger is that there's literally nothing situational about it. It's like smite, but without bypassing dr.
Besides replacing Favored Enemy, a Guide/Skirmisher Ranger's Hunter's Tricks are pretty awesome stuff. Upending Strike, Entangling Strike, Skill Sage and so on. Upending Strike + Greater Trip is a really awesome charge...
Unchained or normal Monk with a single level of Cleric can use flurry of blows with their deity's favored weapon, plus pick up domain powers that don't track level. A Monk/Cleric1 of Shizuru can flurry a katana and stagger with magical punches through Domain Strike: Gentle Rest.
Statistically, you'd have to have a truly, truly horrible attack bonus for two weapons to produce less average hits than one. The only question is whether you can make two single weapon hurt enough for it to be worth it. Incidentally, Effortless Lace lets you wield two one-handed weapons without the normal -4 penalty, which helps a bit with damage... and with style, in case someone wants to do something like a dual-katana Samurai.
Besides replacing Favored Enemy, a Guide/Skirmisher Ranger's Hunter's Tricks are pretty awesome stuff. Upending Strike, Entangling Strike, Skill Sage and so on. Upending Strike + Greater Trip is a really awesome charge...
Unchained or normal Monk with a single level of Cleric can use flurry of blows with their deity's favored weapon, plus pick up domain powers that don't track level. A Monk/Cleric1 of Shizuru can flurry a katana and stagger with magical punches through Domain Strike: Gentle Rest.
Statistically, you'd have to have a truly, truly horrible attack bonus for two weapons to produce less average hits than one. The only question is whether you can make two single weapon hurt enough for it to be worth it. Incidentally, Effortless Lace lets you wield two one-handed weapons without the normal -4 penalty, which helps a bit with damage... and with style, in case someone wants to do something like a dual-katana Samurai.
^ agree with all this.
For crusader's flurry build I favor a warpriest monk because a warpriest can be combat-ready faster than a cleric. All the love for the warpriest.
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Besides replacing Favored Enemy, a Guide/Skirmisher Ranger's Hunter's Tricks are pretty awesome stuff. Upending Strike, Entangling Strike, Skill Sage and so on. Upending Strike + Greater Trip is a really awesome charge...
Unchained or normal Monk with a single level of Cleric can use flurry of blows with their deity's favored weapon, plus pick up domain powers that don't track level. A Monk/Cleric1 of Shizuru can flurry a katana and stagger with magical punches through Domain Strike: Gentle Rest.
Statistically, you'd have to have a truly, truly horrible attack bonus for two weapons to produce less average hits than one. The only question is whether you can make two single weapon hurt enough for it to be worth it. Incidentally, Effortless Lace lets you wield two one-handed weapons without the normal -4 penalty, which helps a bit with damage... and with style, in case someone wants to do something like a dual-katana Samurai.
^ agree with all this.
For crusader's flurry build I favor a warpriest monk because a warpriest can be combat-ready faster than a cleric. All the love for the warpriest.
Actually, if you are going to use a crusader's flurry monk, cleric is the better option because they gain channel at first level and warpriest needs 4 levels. The crusader archetype grants free weapon focus as well, allowing you to take crusaders flurry with a one level dip.
Actually, if you are going to use a crusader's flurry monk, cleric is the better option because they gain channel at first level and warpriest needs 4 levels. The crusader archetype grants free weapon focus as well, allowing you to take crusaders flurry with a one level dip.Besides replacing Favored Enemy, a Guide/Skirmisher Ranger's Hunter's Tricks are pretty awesome stuff. Upending Strike, Entangling Strike, Skill Sage and so on. Upending Strike + Greater Trip is a really awesome charge...
Unchained or normal Monk with a single level of Cleric can use flurry of blows with their deity's favored weapon, plus pick up domain powers that don't track level. A Monk/Cleric1 of Shizuru can flurry a katana and stagger with magical punches through Domain Strike: Gentle Rest.
Statistically, you'd have to have a truly, truly horrible attack bonus for two weapons to produce less average hits than one. The only question is whether you can make two single weapon hurt enough for it to be worth it. Incidentally, Effortless Lace lets you wield two one-handed weapons without the normal -4 penalty, which helps a bit with damage... and with style, in case someone wants to do something like a dual-katana Samurai.
^ agree with all this.
For crusader's flurry build I favor a warpriest monk because a warpriest can be combat-ready faster than a cleric. All the love for the warpriest.
By "combat ready" I mean action-wise, not level-wise. Swift action buffing means you can get by without pre-buff a lot better than the cleric can.
DTE really loves his Rangers ^_^.
I just got burned on them from 3.5, and the Players I've seen them run in a campaign were woefully unoptimized in an environment where it became a meta-campaign between me and the DM to challenge the limits of CR and how to challenge the party as a whole without one-shotting the average PCs. Slayer redeemed the Ranger theme for me, and had fun with it in the PF setting.
Just focusing on Fighter this thread. I'm really finding the Fauchard appealing, despite the feat cost because of it's modest crit rate, reach, trip, and damage. Plus the evolved ceremonial versions look very sweet fluff-wise.
Plus there was this cool AWT that lets me treat a favored weapon a la WarPriest, and that goes some distance to equalizing a small PC's base damage. My goal with Feats isn't just to stack numbers a la Greater Versions of WpnFoc and WpnSpec, but unlock wonder CMB abilities and synergistic passive bonuses.
Just to point out, trip can be rather problematic for a small race since you can only trip a target up to one size larger than you are. If going with a small character, tripping will have far more limited options than with a normal one.
If you wanted to go with a 'brutal power in a small package' thing that uses reach, you could cross Ascetic Style with Dragon Style to get huge strength bonuses with a weapon in one hand, and then use Amateur Swashbuckler with a Swordmaster's Flair Blue Scarf to get reach; Slashing Grace would allow Panache/Flair to work with a 9-ring broadsword or temple sword. Lore Warden could add tripping pretty easily if you want to go that road.
Or, with one level of Master of Many Styles Monk + Dragon Style/Ferocity + Ascetic Style, you could even wield two weapons that each get at least 1.5xSTR damage and full Power Attack.
Just to point out, trip can be rather problematic for a small race since you can only trip a target up to one size larger than you are. If going with a small character, tripping will have far more limited options than with a normal one.
Good advice; I've run into it before and it's nice that Fighter can get Poised Bearing to bring me even with a Medium PC for CMB elibility.