Hey guys!
So I'm considering a Skull & Shackles character, and I've okayed a concept with the GM. The idea is to play a tiefling antipaladin for two levels, then multiclass into sorcerer - from there, dragon disciple and eldritch knight are the idea. Trouble is, I've never built a gish character before, so I'm looking for some help.
There's probably a few things I should mention first.
1.) I'm not really interested in playing a magus, bloodrager or straight cleric - mostly because I'm after the versatility of the wizard spell list. I've never really played with it before.
2.) My GM mentioned that tieflings appear to qualify for Eldritch Knight through their darkness ability, so if I'm interested in jumping into that sooner he'll look into it properly and make sure it won't completely overpower me or anything. So it might be an option for the build.
3.) I really like the look of the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype. Tattoos are pirate-y. On the subject of piracy, I'd also really like to avoid armour if possible.
4.) I'll be a worshipper of Besmara, and my GM has okayed me taking a few liberties with the antipaladin in theory - again, we'd have to talk it over. But there's a good chance I'll be chaotic neutral rather than chaotic evil - it'll be re-fluffed as Besmara awakening my latent fiendish heritage in exchange for following her code (and the ship's articles) with the same enthusiasm you'd expect from a regular paladin/antipaladin.
5.) It's probably a daydream, but I really want the level 9 spell Salvage. Level 9 spells don't kick in for me until 20, so is there any way of getting that off sooner? I've got this mental image of captaining a patched up wreck from Shackles legend, like something out of Pirates of the Caribbean. It's not a deal breaker, but it is something I think would be awesome.
Thanks guys!
With regards to 2: The matter of SLAs qualifying for PrCs is much debated. It was originally explicitly allowed by Paizo, then they totally ran back on it. If your GM is cool with it, then go for it.
Tattooed Sorceror's are pretty nice, and if you're out for some extra damage, the new bloodline mutations in Magic Tactics Toolbox, such as Blood Havoc, should be right up your alley.
With regards to Besmara, there are Antipaladin codes for her in Inner Sea Faiths, so I'd try to hold true to those as you can.
Antipaladins of Besmara are cutthroat pirates, freely
roaming where they will and seizing whatever interests
them. They primarily emulate their goddess’s violent
aspects, but different antipaladins focus on varied
aspects of Besmara’s code. The code of Besmara’s
antipaladins includes the following adages.
• I pursue what I desire. One who cannot keep it from
me does not deserve to possess it.
• Treasure demonstrates my might. I won’t waste my
time on schemes with no profit to be had.
• No trick is beneath me. I will never forgo an
advantage in the name of fairness.
• Pride does not shackle me. I retreat if I must to
survive for another day.
• The weak serve the strong. I will never let my crew
forget or doubt my strength.
• Revenge can be delayed to keep the ship sailing.
Crew members who cross me shall die onshore; foes
can be useful allies under changed circumstances.
• I will suffer no restraint. Those who seek to pacify
me will fall broken in my wake.
Main issue I'm seeing here is, like most gishes, you seem too spread out and not very focused.
{. . .}
1.) I'm not really interested in playing a magus, bloodrager or straight cleric - mostly because I'm after the versatility of the wizard spell list. I've never really played with it before.
A few other things get the Sorcerer/Wizard list or a 6 level subset of it: for instance, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (use Unchained Rogue as a base instead of classic Rogue) and Warlock Vigilante.
2.) My GM mentioned that tieflings appear to qualify for Eldritch Knight through their darkness ability, so if I'm interested in jumping into that sooner he'll look into it properly and make sure it won't completely overpower me or anything. So it might be an option for the build.
This doesn't work any more, due to the SLA FAQ nerf, although if your GM wants to extensively house-rule stuff anyway, feel free to ignore this errata.
3.) I really like the look of the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype. Tattoos are pirate-y. On the subject of piracy, I'd also really like to avoid armour if possible.
This has obvious practical reasons for it. Note that some Magus archetypes trade down armor, but they probably don't fit with your concept even if you were willing to consider a Magus.
4.) I'll be a worshipper of Besmara, and my GM has okayed me taking a few liberties with the antipaladin in theory - again, we'd have to talk it over. But there's a good chance I'll be chaotic neutral rather than chaotic evil - it'll be re-fluffed as Besmara awakening my latent fiendish heritage in exchange for following her code (and the ship's articles) with the same enthusiasm you'd expect from a regular paladin/antipaladin.
It would be nice if we got one or more official Paladinoid(?) classes or archetypes that can be of the remaining alignments not covered at all (Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, and Neutral). In the meantime, your GM might want to create one.
5.) It's probably a daydream, but I really want the level 9 spell Salvage. Level 9 spells don't kick in for me until 20, so is there any way of getting that off sooner? I've got this mental image of captaining a patched up wreck from Shackles legend, like something out of Pirates of the Caribbean. It's not a deal breaker, but it is something I think would be awesome.
If you go 2 levels of Antipaladin, Sorcerer, and Eldritch Knight, you will lose 3 levels of spellcasting progression (by the way, take the trait Magical Knack so that you at least lose only 1 level of caster level), you will not get 9th level spellcasting by 20th level, because Sorcerer gets this at 18th level if single-classed. So getting a scroll of it is your best bet, followed by crafting a magic item (where you can bypass a spell prerequisite for the item by increasing the crafting DC -- make sure you are under Crafter's Fortune when you are crafting it, but keep in mind that recharging might be problematic if you don't actually have the spell).
Tattooed Sorceror's are pretty nice, and if you're out for some extra damage, the new bloodline mutations in Magic Tactics Toolbox, such as Blood Havoc, should be right up your alley.
With regards to Besmara, there are Antipaladin codes for her in Inner Sea Faiths, so I'd try to hold true to those as you can.
Thanks for the heads up on that code, it's perfect! Inner Sea Faiths isn't one I've read, but I reckon I'll pick it up if it's gonna be that helpful! The bloodline mutations sound cool too - I'll have a look.
Main issue I'm seeing here is, like most gishes, you seem too spread out and not very focused.
I think that's going to be a recurring habit of mine in Pathfinder. Any suggestions?
A few other things get the Sorcerer/Wizard list or a 6 level subset of it: for instance, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (use Unchained Rogue as a base instead of classic Rogue) and Warlock Vigilante.
That's cool. Not what I'm after here, I think - but I'll keep them in mind later (especially if I wind up enjoying the arcane stuff!)
This doesn't work any more, due to the SLA FAQ nerf, although if your GM wants to extensively house-rule stuff anyway, feel free to ignore this errata.
Yeah, he's pretty happy to houserule stuff - we're not really a minmax sorta group, so we're pretty relaxed about stuff. But we're also fairly new to Pathfinder, so mostly he's cautious about one of us accidentally break the game. I don't *think* that's likely here.
It would be nice if we got one or more official Paladinoid(?) classes or archetypes that can be of the remaining alignments not covered at all (Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, and Neutral). In the meantime, your GM might want to create one.
Yeah, agreed. I know he suggested I could swap out Detect/Smite Good for Detect/Smite Lawful - seems to make sense for a criminal character. I doubt he'd bother writing a whole class if I'm only going to look at a couple of levels, though.
If you go 2 levels of Antipaladin, Sorcerer, and Eldritch Knight, you will lose 3 levels of spellcasting progression (by the way, take the trait Magical Knack so that you at least lose only 1 level of caster level), you will not get 9th level spellcasting by 20th level, because Sorcerer gets this at 18th level if single-classed.
I totally forgot that, aye! Not that it's likely to matter too much - I don't think Skull & Shackles takes you to level 20 anyway. It's definitely a note though - throwing in some Dragon Disciple will cost me another spellcasting level as well.
So getting a scroll of it is your best bet, followed by crafting a magic item (where you can bypass a spell prerequisite for the item by increasing the crafting DC -- make sure you are under Crafter's Fortune when you are crafting it, but keep in mind that recharging might be problematic if you don't actually have the spell).
That's great, thank you!
Cheers guys :) Happy to take any advice people can give me - this is a more complicated build than anything I've tried before now.
You really just need to decide what you're going to be doing. What is the goal of the build, etc. Paint us a picture of what you're trying to do, just remember Pathfinder isn't entirely conducive to elaborate plans.
I imagine the Antipaladin is for CHA to saves, and RP flavor, with the bulk of the build going towards Sorc and EK?
Magical Knack is a must for a trait as mentioned earlier, since you're losing a grand total of 3 caster levels here, 2 from Antipaladin, and 1 from that first level of EK. The trait will get you to a slightly less disadvantaged -1 CL.
Will you be blasting with your sorc casting, or more focused on buffing? This will determine just how important your CHA really is, since this effects your DCs. If you're just dropping says Shield on yourself though, CHA really isn't too important. Given SS has lots of ship to ship combat, I could see pushing for an evocation focused blasty build with the mentioned blood havoc mutation could result in some pretty damaging fireballs and burning ships.
Hmm. I hadn't given much thought to this side of things - I've mostly been thinking terms of the fluff.
Given the fluff though, it would make sense to wreak havoc rather than meekly buff the others. Playing a role in ship-to-ship combat is also ideal - we haven't playtested those rules yet, but they're a part I'm particularly looking forward to!
I'm not adverse to buffing charisma either - all the better to scheme, manipulate and boast with.
I'd also figured on including a few levels of Dragon Disciple too. The stat boosts and flavour are really tempting, but the loss of yet another caster level is worrying me.
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Hmm. I hadn't given much thought to this side of things - I've mostly been thinking terms of the fluff.
Given the fluff though, it would make sense to wreak havoc rather than meekly buff the others. Playing a role in ship-to-ship combat is also ideal - we haven't playtested those rules yet, but they're a part I'm particularly looking forward to!
I'm not adverse to buffing charisma either - all the better to scheme, manipulate and boast with.
I'd also figured on including a few levels of Dragon Disciple too. The stat boosts and flavour are really tempting, but the loss of yet another caster level is worrying me.
Fluff wise you can talk like a pirate and make decisions like a pirate with ANY class. Do not feel shoehorned into an Archetype or what not based on a Water theme or Pirate "flavored".
I'm currently Playing a bloodrager in S & S and crushing it....Love the class. It is an option for you as well as it is good for Dragon Disciple entry.
Oh, I'm not feeling too shoehorned (though I have fallen into that trap before). Bloodrager would make for a killer pirate character, either as a spellcasting swashbuckler with anger issues or as some sort of islander native gone pirate.
But I fancy the mechanics of this one, break out of my usual habits. Bloodrager and vigilante are likely next on the list :)
Take psychic bloodline and cast in armor!
...do they do that? I missed that!
Maybe for another character, though. Pirates aren't big on armour, and the plan is for tattooed sorcerer with the draconic bloodline, going into dragon disciple :)
I think the biggest issue with gishes is the action economy. You can either fight or cast a spell, not both at once. Maybe look at the Reach Cleric Guide for ideas? (Use a reach weapon, cast a spell as your standard action, and then rely on AoOs for doing weapon damage when your opponents come at you.)
A build depending upon most types of Reach weapons might actually be rather bad in Skull & Shackles, due to cramped spaces. Rules As Written don't fully reflect this, but seagoing people favored things like cutlasses for real practical reasons -- short enough to be handy in cramped conditions, but sharp enough to cut both opponents and rigging/ropes. Reach that doesn't give you a minimum attack range (the Long Arm spell, Whips, and Aberrant Bloodline/Eldritch Heritage shenanigans, or Dorn Dergar if you are a Dwarf) are not bad, though, since you can pull these back in if things get too cramped.
If you're thinking of Dragon Disciple, why not dump Eldritch Knight altogether and just go straight for Dragon Disciple? You don't actually need any martial class to qualify for this, although Dragon Disciple itself has 3 levels in it (1, 5, and 9) that do not progress spellcasting. Although again, being shipboard kind of puts a cramp on taking full advantage of Dragon Form. Note that Dragon Disciple has only 3/4 BAB despite having d12 HD.
If you want to go gish with a Sorcerer but minimize loss of spellcasting progression, you could instead dump the Antipaladin part and go Sorcerer VMC Oracle of Battle or Metal with Skill At Arms as your first Revelation (unfortunately the armor proficiency part is wasted for you) into Eldritch Knight. Unfortunately, VMC Oracle is hard to make good (the -6 penalty on effective Oracle level and restricted list of Revelations really hurts), and it eats an awful lot of feats.
Another possibility is again to dump the Antipaladin levels and go from Sorcerer (VMC not required, opening up the opportunity to take more feats or pick a better VMC such as Magus) into Evangelist of Besmara. This again has 3/4 BAB but only costs you 1 level of spellcasting progression and Bloodline advancement, and thereafter progresses both without interruption. Use skill ranks along with your Deific Obedience to qualify so that you don't have to delay entry. Unfortunately, Archives of Nethys doesn't list a Deific Obedience for Besmara, so you're going to have to work with your GM to come up with one, probably with the ritual being a perversion of Abadar's Deific Obedience, but granting boons probably like a remix of those of Calistria and Gorum (getting rid of the Mounted requirements of the latter).
Note that if you are going to be a Tiefling Sorcerer gish, being a Demon-Spawned Tiefling with the Abyssal Bloodline is VERY good for you, as long as you don't interrupt the progression of Bloodline Powers -- you really want that 9th level Bloodline Power that starts increasing your Strength, and the Bloodline Arcana is awesome for when you are summoning nasty things (unfortunately I don't know of any to summon Dragons, so you'll have to make do with Outsiders and Fiendish or Entropic Animals), while Fiendish Sorcery (from the Tiefling) allows you to pump Charisma less to save points for fulfilling your MAD ability score requirements, although you will be seriously hurting for skill points. Going Aberrant/Abyssal Cross-Blooded is an option to get Aberrant Reach instead of Abyssal Claws, but note that while it lets you attack with Reach, it doesn't let you threaten at Reach (unlike the Bloodrager Aberrant Bloodline), and it really cramps your spells known, so probably better to stick with just straight Abyssal and use the Long Arm spell to give yourself Reach, as well as Enlarge Person in those situations in which you're you aren't going to get too cramped.
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Unfortunately, Archives of Nethys doesn't list a Deific Obedience for Besmara, so you're going to have to work with your GM to come up with one,
Again, Inner Sea Faiths.
Steal a gold coin or alcoholic drink by force or trickery. Then, while recounting your latest or most impressive act of piracy and blessing Besmara’s name for all to hear, offer your stolen item to her by throwing it into water at least 4 feet deep. Alternatively, you can
recount your most impressive or recent act of piracy to someone unaware of it, although you are free to hide the fact that the act was yours. You then gain a +2 sacred or profane bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity. The type of bonus depends on your alignment — if you’re neither good nor evil, you must choose either sacred or profane the first time you perform your obedience, and this choice can’t be changed.
What about the Besmara's Deific Obedience boons? Or is that not legally postable on here?
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What about the Besmara's Deific Obedience boons? Or is that not legally postable on here?
Dunno about legality, but it's also in there.
1: Tricky Adversary (Sp) illusion of calm 3/day, daze monster 2/day, or twilight knife 1/day
2: Coerce Service (Su) You understand and can exhibit the blatantly charismatic pull of your goddess, convincing others to aid you even if they normally might not. Once per day, when you attempt a Diplomacy check to bribe a target (treat as if you are attempting to improve an NPC’s attitude toward you by one step) or an Intimidate check to coerce a target, you can use this ability to gain Besmara’s blessing to ensure further cooperation. You gain a +4 sacred or profane bonus (of the same type as that provided by your obedience) on the Diplomacy or Intimidate check, and if you succeed, the target is immediately subject to a geas/quest effect. For as long as the effect lasts, you can concentrate as a standard action and learn whether the target is actively undertaking your orders or actively defying them.
3: Bribed Sea Monster (Sp) The sea monsters at Besmara’s behest follow your call at the goddess’s command. Once per day as a standard action, you can summon one of the monsters Besmara has bribed or intimidated into aiding her followers. You must choose the monster from among the following list: adult sea dragon, sea serpent, or vouivre. The monster appears as if summoned via summon monster, and you must summon it into an appropriately watery environment. It follows your commands perfectly for 1 round per Hit Die you possess before vanishing. The monster doesn’t follow commands that contravene Besmara’s interests, such as blocking waterways or giving a navy better control of a sea region; issuing such untenable instructions, if they’re egregious, could cause the monster to attack you.
^Thanks. Looks like Deific Obedience to Besmara could be thematically quite sensible for the OP's character.
. . . And suddenly, the notion of Sense and Sensibility and Sea Monsters just popped into my head . . . .
Having slept on it, maybe it's wise to dump the draconic aspect - looking at the PrC again, as nice as the ability boosts are I think I'd rather the spellcasting progression.
'Course, that was half the fluff I had in mind gone. The advantage there is I can rejig the concept a bit - I'm now quite tempted by Gillman, actually. Reckon it'll be a good one in Skull and Shackles (though I'll probably take Riverborn to be on the safe side).
I definitely want to keep Antipaladin - I'd have probably been open to changing that before, but the Besmara stuff from Inner Sea Faiths is just too damn tempting - I think it'll be really fun to play. That last line, "I will suffer no restraint. Those who seek to pacify
me will fall broken in my wake", just sounds perfect for the first adventure (I believe we get enslaved or press-ganged).
Which would leave me with Antipaladin for two levels, then into tattooed sorcerer and on to eldritch knight. No archetype on the antipaladin as yet, and I'm open on sorcerer bloodlines - Abyssal does seem nice.
Also, as nice as reach is I'd feel weird doing this without a cutlass. I'm mostly gutted there's no way to shoehorn a pistol in!
...also, I really need to read Sense & Sensibility & Sea Monsters. Is it any good?
...also, I really need to read Sense & Sensibility & Sea Monsters. Is it any good?
I just watched "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" and it was SOOOOOOOOOO BOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIING!!!!! It took itself WAY too seriously, and wasn't even campy. It tried to be funny one and a half times, and failed miserably.
I had middling hopes, since I liked "The Last Policeman" series by the same author. I'm also a big fan of Gail Carriger's "Soulless" series (the Parasol Protectorate?), which combines quasi-Victorian Comedy of Manners with the supernatural like a boss!!! Like, I actually LOL when reading it. So I was hoping for a hint of that. And only got a hint, which was a weak-@%% attempt at witty dialogue during a fight scene. Everything else was super boring, but then again, I never read the source material.
...also, I really need to read Sense & Sensibility & Sea Monsters. Is it any good?
I actually don't know -- I just saw the cover, and now the title is stuck in my head (likewise with Pride and Prejudice and Zombies).