In general, if one of your players decides to play a class like a cleric and choose to follow a virtuous philosophy, by the books, does the character's alignment play any part?
Also, another by-the-books thing, if said cleric instead worships say, Asmodeus AND Erastil, they could and should be Lawful Neutral? What about if they are a polytheistic cleric who worships all of the core 20? Does any alignment count as "one step away" from at least ONE of the core 20 and thus is appropriate enough?
For a concept, they should probably be an alignment that suits the concept. If the concept they worship is "injustice", then LG is likely going to be a poor fit. Clerics that worship a concept rather than a deity specifically say to work with the GM, though, so anybody else's answer on that front doesn't mean anything.
Clerics worship a single deity for mechanical purposes. They can "venerate" additional deities, but they're getting their power from one. There are some in-canon examples of a few faiths that worship multiple deities, but in those cases they always have a unifying element. For instance, the Order of the Godclaw grabs tenets from five major lawful deities, but it's unclear which of them is actually granting the power or if the power is similar to a concept-based Cleric. In any case, I believe Godclaw worshippers must be within one step of LN.
Worshipping all twenty wouldn't work because, for instance, Lamashtu and Abadar have nothing in common, and Urgathoa and Pharasma have mutually exclusive goals and tenets. If a player were to approach me with that idea, I'd probably tell them that they instead functioned as a concept-based Cleric worshipping divinity itself, and that they would need to be within one step of TN (and they'd need a good reason to be one step away, since that would put them diametrically opposed to a deity they claim to worship).
Oh ok, while the question also was for me as a player, it also was meant to double as a GM question, because I want to introduce a Gold Dragon (LG) that hoards Holy/Unholy Symbols as its treasure hoard -- as an NPC/Monster, and unsure if I should use the Cleric simple template (which states the "must worship a deity, must be one step from its alignment") or give it class levels into Cleric so as to use it as if it were a concept-based cleric, LG but has learned to worship each deity for which it has collected a holy or unholy symbol for.
As GM is that okay?
As a GM, you can do what you want, so long as folks are having fun. Some things may work better, though. The idea of hoarding holy symbols is very cool, but why would chaotic or evil deities grant the dragon power? As a GM, you can do it, but it'd be a big change to how deities operate.
Here's how I'd handle it- this is just advice, though, rather than rules.
- Replace Sorcerer casting with Cleric casting rather than add Cleric spells. This makes things a lot easier to balance, while making the dragon more unique. Just leave off the domains, similar to how a dragon's Sorcerer casting lacks bloodline spells.
- One option: stick to alignment restrictions and tenet restrictions when it comes to the deities being worshipped and granting spells. Just because the dragon has all those symbols doesn't mean it needs to worship them.
- Another option: rather than worshipping any deities, the dragon is just using the residual power imbued in the holy/unholy symbols, supplemented by its own magical talent in order to cast like a Cleric.
Oh okay, that's just the sort of answer I was looking for. That is a clever alternative, I like it a lot, thank you. I am still kind of intent on the dragon holding divine beings in a high regard AKIN to worship though.
What are kobolds' role when accompanying a dragon in an encounter? Could it not be insinuated this dragon has kobold loyalists who participate in active worship of the various deities in the dragon's stead?
In general, if one of your players decides to play a class like a cleric and choose to follow a virtuous philosophy, by the books, does the character's alignment play any part?
Also, another by-the-books thing, if said cleric instead worships say, Asmodeus AND Erastil, they could and should be Lawful Neutral? What about if they are a polytheistic cleric who worships all of the core 20? Does any alignment count as "one step away" from at least ONE of the core 20 and thus is appropriate enough?
Golarion does not have a pantheon, i.e. an Olympian style "family" of gods led by a Sky Mother or Father. So a pantheistic cleric is a no-no for anyone running a canon-based campaign.
I could not comprehend a cleric that would have both Asmodeus and Erastil as a primary diety. What binds you to a god is something more profound than the mere two components of a god's alignment.
The class you're probably looking for is Oracle, who gets her spells regardless of her relationship with the gods, or may be drawing power from some place, concept, or thing.
For example, you could have a LG oracle of the Dark Tapestry whose curse and powers are coming from Azathoth, because sometimes a person just handed a FUBAR deal by life.
Though perhaps of interest - the very recent Path of the Hellknight goes into the mechanics of being a follower of the God-Claw, a heretical pantheon of LN takes on Iomedae, Torag, Irori, Abadar, and Asmodeus. A cleric/deity-dependent class that follows the God-Claw picks a "primary" deity, but with the God-Claw Hellknight obedience can, among other things, use their holy symbols interchangeably.
While the actual God-Claw Mystery for oracles results in a character who can actually draw power from every god in the mini-pantheon, since oracles are not locked to a single deity.
@ Drahliana - a cleric who followed both Erastil and Asmodeus (though mechanically he'd have to pick a "primary") probably has a very warped interpretation of both, and would be considered a heretic by both mainstream faiths.
But heretics can still get spells (heck, there's even a heretic archetype for clerics, and that can open up some neat story options.
@ Drahliana - a cleric who followed both Erastil and Asmodeus (though mechanically he'd have to pick a "primary") probably has a very warped interpretation of both, and would be considered a heretic by both mainstream faiths.
But heretics can still get spells (heck, there's even a heretic archetype for clerics, and that can open up some neat story options.
But in order to get spells from a god, you have to have SOME minimum level of attunement.
A character like this either worships one god primarily with delusions of worshipping the other, or simply gets no spells at all. This isn't Eberron, after all.
Well, it does seem Gold Dragons cast cleric spells, but as IF they were a arcane, and using Charisma. So I'm not exactly sure that change does much for the flavor I'm trying to add.
Since the Cleric Simple Template doesn't give Domains just like was mentioned above, I think I may just use the template, but utilise my power as GM to forego the "only one deity, alignment must be < 2 steps away" rule and keep the flavor that was suggested above.
Oh okay, that's just the sort of answer I was looking for. That is a clever alternative, I like it a lot, thank you. I am still kind of intent on the dragon holding divine beings in a high regard AKIN to worship though.
In that case, I would probably have the dragon worship divinity itself, making any collection of multiple holy symbols into an effective holy symbol for them, and move their alignment at least one step closer to TN, if not all the way. (It's really hard to reconcile a Lawful Good character holding either of the two core CE deities in high regard.) That, however, gets into alignment, and that's going to be best handled by you, the GM. (Interestingly enough, Golarion has a gold dragon that the designers themselves can't agree on an alignment for, and the question is between neutral and evil.)
What are kobolds' role when accompanying a dragon in an encounter? Could it not be insinuated this dragon has kobold loyalists who participate in active worship of the various deities in the dragon's stead?
Kobolds generally don't hang out with metallic dragons, sticking to chromatic for the most part. Given a dragon, though, they're probably going to worship the dragon as a much more direct influence on their lives than any deities. Still, kobold minions and dragons do go together like peanut butter and chocolate, so having a kobold cult centered around worship on behalf of a dragon makes for an interesting scenario.
There's a non-Lawful Good Gold Dragon? I do ASSUME it's GM discretion to use creature alignment as only a guideline, but I sort of shy away from changing a creature's alignment, with no Bestiary-based advice on how and why to change it. I should pursue that, and/or the notion of an Amalgam Creature made from certain Chromatic & Metallic dragons, or a custom dragon breed altogether, though that seems like that's unnecessarily complicated compared to using a standard type of dragon.
Lol I looked into the Kobold thing, and I am saddened I can't evoke the aesthetic flavor of metallic dragon-scaled Kobolds as part of this multi-theistic cult centered around a dragon lol
Mengkare, the leader of Hermea, is the subject of intra-office alignment debates at Paizo. If a creature has free will and isn't a non-native Outsider, then the alignment is just a typical one. Personally, I usually stick within one step in each direction, but that's just my preference. There's nothing forcing gold dragons to not dabble with the deep end of the alignment pool. If you want to throw in some black scales as a symbolic indicator of mixed allegiances, that's not a bad idea. (Tipping your players off that you've tweaked stuff is a good idea.)
Oh, that's right- there are metallic-scaled kobolds, they're just rare. You're the GM, though! Feel free to make monsters up. That's in your job description!
Oh okay. That is generally something I do, for example if a creature/character is recommended as Lawful Good, I assume LG, LE, LN, NG, and CG are all *options*
Hmm, maybe a gold & black scaled dragon (still a gold dragon probably?) sounds like a cool idea.
But yeah, a crew of typical, uncommon, and rare colored kobolds worshipping their draconic master through doing as he wishes-- worshipping the gods, might also have some worth.