Hello there I’ve got a couple of questions. The offender here are a Summoner with a Shadow Form and Shadow Blend Eidolon and a Fighter with an intelligent weapon.
For starters the Eidolon:
It has Shadow Form (20% miss chance) and on top of it shadow blend (50% concealment when in shadowy areas)
The Stealth rules state, that you can make stealth checks if you have any kind of cover or concealment in regards to your enemy. Soft cover from creatures not bigger than yourself don’t allow stealth checks and things like Blur, Blink and the Miss chance you get from Lightning stance don’t allow you to use stealth either. That’s what I could gather so far.
However, the Eidolon thing seems to be something completely different “The Eidolons body becomes shadowy and more indistinct”
So what I’m asking now is this line from Stealth:
Stealth rules wrote: “Being Observed If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.” I’m a little confused about this wording. Does this mean you can ALWAYS use stealth if you have cover or concealment even WHILE you’re observed? Or do you always have to make a bluff check first to use your stealth?
It’s made more complicated with the wording of “Hide in plain sight” especially for Shadowdancers. Being in the shadows give you by default concealment and the option to hide, but the class ability explicitly states that you can make stealth checks even WHILE observed. That’s why I ask for clarification here. (and of course hide in plain sight lets Shadowdancers even hide against creatures with LLV or DV)
So far I ruled for him that his Eidolon can make stealth checks where it stands (because of innate 20% concealment even in broad daylight) as long as it isn’t observed by whoever it wants to sneak at. For example they know a room ahead is full of enemies and the Eidolon can walk around in plain view of the room while using stealth since it’s “indistinct” but if it gets spotted and a fight starts it can’t use stealth anymore, because it’s under observation of the enemies and would need a bluff check to make them look away and “hide” again.
Furthermore, does 50% concealment means automatically invisible? I think not, right? so as long as the Eidolon isn’t actively trying to be sneaky even the 50% concealment would allow anybody to see it “normally”
BTW as a side note, who of you guys and gals bother checking for the vision of the enemies how far a stealthy sneaker can hide in the shadows (because concealment from shadow should be only applied if the enemy can’t see all too clear into those said shadows :x )
Now to the intelligent weapon:
First Ego and picking a wielder. It is stated, that intelligent items prefer not so strong willed/weak wielders so they can control them. However, why would a weapon pick a lvl 1 fighter over a lvl 20 fighter? Even though the lvl 20 fighter is more likely to not be controlled she’s much more stronger and battle proven and sure to hit what the weapon wants to get hit. Also the lvl 20 fighter won’t die as easily as a lvl 1 one.
Intelligent items get an action on their own, that much I know, what I don’t know is on what INIT count they do that, do they get an independent attack on their own, what if they use a spell?
Which casterlevel is used? The Minimum CL for using that spell? The CL of the weapon itself?
What if the spell requires an attack roll? Does it use the BAB from the wielder? Uses it its own BAB and if so how to determine said BAB? How to determine the DC of the spell if it requires a saving throw?
And lastly, an intelligent item may be able to fly. Can it drag/lift its wielder around? How to determine the carrying capacity of that item, and could it be used to navigate a character that is under the effect of levitation?
That’s about it so far, thanks in advance for your responses ^^
Dotting for curiousity and to reread this when I'm not brain tired.
Bump?
Maybe let me put the questions into different words and organise them a little:
1. Stealth and Concealment
1. a) Concealment and Hiding:
Can someone who has (Partial) Concealment (from a source that doesn't explicitly rule out being used for stealth) use stealth, even if otherwise fully exposed, as long as those he's trying to hide from haven't seen him yet?
I would say yes - if they don't know he's there, he can use the concealment to hide, even if otherwise in plain sight. If he is currently being observed, he needs to establish a distraction using bluff.
This neatly emulates the effect of a well-camoflagued animal that suddenly seems to pop up once you realise it's there.
Follow-up question (1. a) i., if you want): Can someone with Total Concealment (from an effect that doesn't rule out stealth) ever be truly observed (except by a sense that directly breaks stealth, like Darkvision in darkness or Blindsight in general)?
There are some effects, like Displacement, that directly specify "You can still be seen", but in general Total Concealment seems to assume that such a character is always hidden and always needs to be pinpointed.
The summary here is, basically, "What's the difference between Total Concealment and true invisibility?"
2. Intelligent Items, how do they work?
2. a) The Fluff: It says Intelligent prefer weak-minded users so they can establish dominance. Wouldn't that also mean that they prefer weaker wielders in general, since Will Saves rise with level?
2. b) The Crunch: Intelligent Items and their actions...
2. b) i.: They do get an indepentend action, but do they use that on their wielder's turn, or do they get their own initiative turn?
(I'd say just use their wielder's turn. If they don't have a wielder at the moment, either give them +0 dex initiative modifier, or maybe allow them to use int in place of dex. But that's nowhere in the rules.)
2. b) ii.: What do they get to do with their turns? Only spellcasting, or can they also move/attack?
(I'd allow only spellcasting and mental actions (like spending a move action to study something and stuff).)
2. c) Some Intelligent Items can fly. What's their carrying capacity?
(I'd probably base it on charisma, but modified for their size - two-handed weapons as the size of their wielders, one-handed weapons as one size cathegory smaller, light weapons two sizes smaller. But that's also nowhere in the rules. Either way, no hands, so they could only carry stuff attached to (or skewered by) them.)
Full disclaimer: I'm playing the (chained) summoner the Eidolon mentioned above belongs to. (Both eidolon and summoner went through several name changes)
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Ultimate Intrigue did a lot to clear up some of this stealth stuff. Cover and Concealment are what's necessary to break observation enough to hide. Effects like Blur and Displacement leave a clear outline of the person, so they don't allow stealth. Invisibility and it's bonuses are limited to specific things that function as invisibility.
Skills in Conflict, Ultimage Intrigue
That page *probably* clarifies that Shadow Form + Shadow Blend allow stealth as long as opponents aren't aware of the character's location.
But all in all, I think there's still room for interpretation/need for clarification.
"A sense is precise if it allows the creature to use targeted effects on creatures and objects it senses, and to attack enemies without suffering a miss chance from concealment."
According to this, "Sight" isn't a precise sense against an Eidolon using Shadow Form + Shadow Blend, since attacks against such an Eidolon have 50% miss chance due to concealment (or just 20% in bright illumination). In fact, "Sight" stops being a precise sense the moment someone without Darkvision looks at someone in Shadowy Illumination (20% miss chance due to concealment).
On the other hand, declaring "Sight" an IMprecise sense has vast consequences, because: "Imprecise senses allow a creature to pinpoint the location of another creature, but they don't allow for the use of targeted effects, and attacks against those creatures are subject to miss chances from concealment."
In other words, such an Eidolon (or anyone standing in shadowy illumination) could be pinpointed using sight, but it couldn't be directly targeted by targeted effects.
Also, it later says that you only need bluff to hide if you're observed using a precise sense, so if sight is imprecise, such an Eidolon (as well as anyone who's just standing in some dim illumination) could just hide at will without bluff.
Okay I have parts of the answer figured out myself now.
Shadow Form + Shadow Blend together gives an Eidolon TOTAL concealment. And the definition of total concealment is:
Total Concealment wrote: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
Thus an Eidolon with those evolutions is practically invisible as in “can’t be seen” making the discussion whether or not an Eidolon with those evolutions can make stealth checks while being observed in dim light obsolete. It just can’t be observed in dim light conditions. Also that effect even negates LLV and DV since it just activates whenever it is in anything less than bright light and ignores how the perceived illumination level is by others. Meaning an Eidolon is invisible in a dark cave whether its sneaking up to a human or an orc.
There is no talk about the equipment of the Eidolon though, only the Eidolon itself becomes shadowy and stuff, if it carries anything it should still be clearly visible and make creatures able to pinpoint its location (albeit still not allowing targeted spells at it for example)
Also I just noted that the Shadow Form evolution just talks about melee attacks doing half damage, so an Eidolon with those Evolutions can happily make ranged attacks while being invisible at full damage…
Well that is taken care off, but the question is still open for less than total concealment (the 20% one)
The link you provided ShieldLawrence was a nice read but didn’t help me to answer my question at all :/
The part about Cover and concealment especially confuses me.
Before that it’s said you can’t use stealth while being observed by a precise sense. And one precise sense is Vision, now on the next part it’s said you need to avoid the precise sense of the opponent to be allowed to use stealth. An example is the shadowy area. However! Being in a shadowy area doesn’t invalidate the Vision of an opponent. You’re still visible albeit with a 20% concealment.
Per definition you’re under observation and pinpointed and can also be targeted by effects, but you DO have concealment which would allow you to make stealth checks without the need of a bluff check first because you HAVE already concealment. The Bluff check is needed when you want to hide under observation but DON’T have concealment or cover from the observing creature yet.
Honestly, I only want to know if you can make stealth checks without the need of bluff while being observed when you have 20% concealment. Be it from shadowy areas or standing in the border squares of a smoke screen or fog wall spell. It is fairly clear that you can make stealth checks under those conditions as long as you want up until the point where the enemy is able to beat your roll and observes you. The crux is now if you’re able to make further stealth checks against the same creature without the need of a bluff.
And some answers to the intelligent item Thing would be appreciated as well ^^'
Concealment or cover is all you need to stealth. Your Shadow Blend is enough to use stealth normally. The concealment (20%) from the ability breaks the sight observation for opponents using sight.
Bluffing to use stealth is usually a tactic useful when there are many hiding places nearby but you don't want the opponent to see which barrel you're hiding behind. Having concealment is superior, as you can begin to stealth right away.
For the most part, effects affecting a creature affect their gear unless stated otherwise. If you are shadowy, you gear is also masked by those shadows. You have concealment/total concealment and your gear does too. A creature trying to sunder your weapon will still have to roll a miss chance.
Hm, I'm not totally sure about that part though. Because in the spell Invisibility it's explicitly stated that gear you wear or items you pick up (and cover in your pockets) become invisible as well.
But you're probably right ^^
Besides, 90% of the time, all that Eidolon is going to carry is a Starknife, if anything at all. And I might even skip that.
Ratnap wrote: Hello there I’ve got a couple of questions. The offender here are a Summoner with a Shadow Form and Shadow Blend Eidolon and a Fighter with an intelligent weapon. Best start two threads when the questions do not relate to each other.
Ratnap wrote: Now to the intelligent weapon:
First Ego and picking a wielder. It is stated, that intelligent items prefer not so strong willed/weak wielders so they can control them. However, why would a weapon pick a lvl 1 fighter over a lvl 20 fighter? Even though the lvl 20 fighter is more likely to not be controlled she’s much more stronger and battle proven and sure to hit what the weapon wants to get hit. Also the lvl 20 fighter won’t die as easily as a lvl 1 one.
Intelligent items get an action on their own, that much I know, what I don’t know is on what INIT count they do that, do they get an independent attack on their own, what if they use a spell?
Which casterlevel is used? The Minimum CL for using that spell? The CL of the weapon itself?
What if the spell requires an attack roll? Does it use the BAB from the wielder? Uses it its own BAB and if so how to determine said BAB? How to determine the DC of the spell if it requires a saving throw?
And lastly, an intelligent item may be able to fly. Can it drag/lift its wielder around? How to determine the carrying capacity of that item, and could it be used to navigate a character that is under the effect of levitation?
An intelligent item is an NPC, treated as a construct. It much choose if a weak willed owner is preferred to a powerful one. Whichever makes more sense for it's stated alignment and personality, and most especially with any special purpose.
As an NPC, they get a full round's worth of actions. The GM can give them their own initiative, but it is usually played as sharing a PCs initiative like a pet (familiar, animal companion, mount...).
Their actions are limited to using their listed powers at will as long as they have sufficient charges left. So if the item has Fly 10', then they can choose to fly as a move action for 10'. If they have a spell as an ability 3/day, they can choose to self activate that spell up to 3 times per day (unless uses were already used).
The item has a CL that it operates at. All effects occur at that CL unless called out. Constructs use the fast track for BAB, so their BAB = CL.
For the DC, Charisma is the default monster stat unless the monster is specifically an arcane (Int) or divine (Wis) caster. As the item has all the mental scores, calculate the DC as normal for a caster.
/cevah
Cevah wrote:
Best start two threads when the questions do not relate to each other.
An intelligent item is an NPC, treated as a construct. It much choose if a weak willed owner is preferred to a powerful one. Whichever makes more sense for it's stated alignment and personality, and most especially with any special purpose.
As an NPC, they get a full round's worth of actions. The GM can give them their own initiative, but it is usually played as sharing a PCs initiative like a pet (familiar, animal companion, mount...).
Their actions are limited to using their...
Okay, I'll Keep that in mind for my next question when I have one ^^
I've read (once again) through the intelligent item description and several questions are now solved, thanks for that ^^
So far I know that it can't make attacks on ist own since it can use only the Special listed powers it has attacks are not among them (but a flying item could very well use itself as a projectile or at least falling object)
Which brings me to the first question.
It can fly as if using the fly spell but only with a 30ft Speed. However the fly spell allows you to carry stuff around that doesn't exceed armour worn + heavy load weight. However an intelligent item has no STR score, so it can't lift anything around?
And while I confirmed that they're treated as constructs and have a fast BAB Progression nowhere is mentioned how they do attack rolls if a spell asks for it. It's said they use their item CL for spells and their highest mental score for DC (regardless of arcane, or divine spells) but nowhere is said how attack rolls are made.
And even though the CL is quite high they still lack a STR or DEX score so the actual roll is quite "bad" in most cases.
Is there anything that really spells it out how they do attack rolls and not just "implied"?
Thanks for the help ^^
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