So, in my area I've got a group of friends who are interested in getting a game night going. YAY! I'm not going to be doing PFS again (I've done it before, but scheduling vs my other needs doesn't work atm) so this is great news. Plus, a static group that can play through entire campaigns? Yes!
I'm an extremely experienced gamer. I don't know if I'll be *the most* experienced gamer at the table, but I've played many systems and practically every type of character (not every class, I mean role and general type). I've found I can play most roles well at this point, from sheer experience. And I have, over the course of that time, found what I like playing most is generally a character that mixes combat and spellcasting - a gish, essentially. Various types appeal to me for different reasons, in different games. We haven't gotten together to make our characters yet - still looking for a couple more players - but I know a few things already.
1: We have a new player - new to tabletop and to Pathfinder. He wants to play the Healer. He wants to play the Holy Vindicator/Life Oracle I had originally thought I might play (it was one of my builds I'd been working up) and we'll probably let him so he can spend his first few levels focusing on healing and learning the combat system, then get some combat/tank ability from the Vindicator.
2: Another player wants to play either a Necromancer type character or a Switch Hitter Ranger.
3: I know some of the ways our DM will come down on some things that research showed were questions on this board when I went looking for ideas.
So, here's the 2 characters I'm thinking I might be likely to end up playing. I'd like some feedback if anyone feels up to it. fBefore that, though, know this; I'm not looking for "perfect optimization" just advice and suggestions (feats, for example, including some tradeoffs) and I'll put more specific bits up regarding each one.
Dragon Bloodrager:
Draconic Bloodline Bloodrager going into Dragon Disciple. First 6 levels Rager, then 2 Disciple, then Rager until 15, then the rest Disciple. Bloodrider Archetype.
We'll be rolling for our stats, but for the sake of putting this post together I'll assume a 25 point buy.
Human
18Str(+2 bonus here), 14Dex, 14Con, 10Int, 10Wis, 14Cha
I'll put 1 point into Cha when I'm leveling, the rest into Str.
Bloodline Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Toughness, Improved Initiative
Other Feats: Quick Draw & Combat Reflexes at L1
Arcane Strike
Boon Companion
Bloodied Arcane Strike
Skill Focus
Eldritch Heritage: Orc
Improved Eldritch Heritage - Strength Boost
Raging Deathblow
Endgame, I hope to have a Belt of Physical Perfection +6, a Headband of Charisn'tMa (his only social skill will be Intimidate, so pardon the pun) +4, Amulet of Mighty Fists (high as I can get it), and wear the best Medium armor I can find.
That gets my endgame Stat Block (with gear) at: Str38, Dex 20, Con 22, Int/Wis10, Cha 19
I like the Bloodrider Archetype, and especially the possibility of using Raging Dragon Form with my mount and getting an extra dragon with 6 natural attacks/round to be my flanking buddy. I'm not married to the feat choices, but I'm really liking the idea of taking the Str boost from the Heritage line.
Any constructive gear suggestions or feat advice would be welcome. Even race alternatives. As far as the level split - right now I'm thinking 7/13, but wonder if 14/6 is better. Is Indomitable Will better than +1 Nat Armor and a Non-Raging Form of the Dragon 1/day? I haven't picked traits at all.
Our DM is going to go by the Paizo FAQ I found saying that Blood of Dragons advances the rager bloodline, rather than a separate Sorcerer bloodline.
That's the character I really want to play. And as of right now I think there's a good chance it's the character I'll end up playing, but it depends on if our other is the Ranger and the remaining two players we've yet to meet. The other character I'd like some feedback on is who I'll be playing if I end up needing to be our "Utility" person with stealth, traps, etc. If I end up needing to be our arcane caster, I'll play a Sylvan Sorcerer and know how to build that, so I'd like feedback on this bad sumb*.
The Archaeologist:
Human Archaeologist (bard archetype)
Str 14, Dex 16(+2 Bonus Here), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
As I level I'll put a point into Cha and the rest into Dex.
Endgame gear will hopefully be similar to the Rager's, but with a +6 headband instead of a 4, and enchanted mithral chain shirt instead of medium armor.
That puts my endgame block at: Str 26(with IEH below), Dex 26, Con 20, Int/Wis 10, Cha 23
That could be changed (particularly str) if I decide to go Dex based, but right now I'm trying to decide between several options. Initially I liked the idea of Eldritch Knight, but when I really looked at it the PrC just didn't offer that much real benefit. Sure, I got an extra iterative attack but it's at such a low bonus I'm not sure it's worth that much at endgame content.
The only trait I've picked is Fate's Favored (is that right? the luck bonus thing?). I'm really thinking about a dip somewhere to get Martial Weapon Proficiency for a better weapon selection.
Our DM is going to go by the creator's suggestion of +1rnd/level for Luck, instead of no progression. I'm also considering 4 levels of Disciple for this one (only lose 1 level of casting, and gain +4 strength). For me, the "cutoffs" for Archaeologist Levels seem to be either 12 (+3 Luck and an Adv Talent) or 17 (2 Adv Talents and +4 Luck), since don't get performances so the normal capstone seems like it doesn't apply to you at all but doesn't have a replacement for the Archetype.
I like the concept here, but could really use some ideas for dealing with the weapon issue, some feat suggestions (lunge?), the level split, and a suggestion for my other trait. I *am* married to the class/archetype pick of Archaeologist on this one, but not necessarily to the specifics of the PrC and dipping options.
Again, I'd appreciate any ideas you care to contribute. Whether or not I use them, I'm grateful for the time you take to help me flesh out my concepts.
Humans work well with Skill Focus due to the Focused Study racial trait, which forces you to use your 1st level human bonus feat for Skill Focus but gives you two more free Skill Focus feats at levels 8 and 16.
In my experience 4 levels of Paladin with Oath of Vengeance was extremely powerful on a Bard. I used a light shield for higher AC with Bane Baldric and Deliquescent Glove to help me inflict meaningful damage against non-Evil foes (against Evil you'd be smiting practically everything you see)
What's the Combat Reflexes on the Bloodrager for, AoO with a lance or something?
Shade: Well, the simple reason is that the Human already gets a free feat, so the Half-Elf's feat isn't a consideration, and the extra rounds aren't an issue between lingering song and the DM giving me extra rounds at 1/level of Archaeologist's Luck per the creator's words, rather than RAW. With lingering song and even just 16 cha, I'll start with 21 rounds and have over 5 minutes/day of it at Level 10 anyway.
Not that I'm opposed to switching races, just that those reasons don't seem like the reason to do it.
Devil:
The Combat Reflexes are a feat I'm considering dropping for something else. But yeah, for AOO with a reach weapon at early levels (first round throw a javelin, then set himself between the party and enemies with a reach weapon and smack anything that approaches, second round drop the reach weapon, pop rage and use claws for two attacks at full bonus) and after Bloodline level 16, just AOOs in general while in Dragon form - since with Greater Bloodrage (+6 Str) AND Form of the Dragon 2 (another +6 Str) if I'm not mistaken, he'd have an effective Str of 50(assuming an 18 starting score). Without any buffs from the rest of the party. And he's built for being up close, so multiple AOOs with a natural reach of 10' (from being a Large dragon) seemed like a decent investment.
I'm intending to use Dragon form a lot, to be honest, once I get it. 6 Natural Attacks/round with an endgame BAB of 17-18 (depending on level split) and +20 strength? Yes please. And with Arcane Strike, Power Attack, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, I'm confident his damage output will be quite respectable.
As for the Bard, I like the idea of a couple levels in Paladin for the martial proficiency and Divine Grace (not that the saves are bad) but I'm concerned about the loss of spellcasting going past 2 levels. A 15th level bard (12+3 from Disciple) would never get 6th level spells at all. Did you find it was worth that tradeoff? I'm liking the look of Dance of a Thousand Cuts and Irresistible Dance in particular, along with the other 5th or 4th level spells (human favored class bonus) I could learn as extra.
Ok, AoOs with the 10' reach Bite could be pretty nice. I guess you could consider exchanging the Dragon Wings from your bloodline for "Come and Get Me" and some other Rage Power via Primalist though it would reduce your maneuverability in Dragon Form (something which most groups I've played with almost completely ignore though YMMV)
Regarding the Bard, the reason for 4 levels of Paladin is that Oath of Vengeance allows you to spend Lay on Hands to use Smite Evil. If you buy the magic items to buff both you'll be Smiting Evil as an 8th level Paladin probably 10+ times per day. I didn't find a 4 level dip to be too painful, but I wasn't aware that your Bard was going into Dragon Disciple too.
I'm also a fan of debuffs. Bards can make a big impact with Blistering Invective, and anybody can use Cornugon Smash. With Intimidating Prowess or Intimidating Glare your 50 Str could make for pretty impressive results there.
I'm thinking 15' reach claws now, actually. I know, not as strong as the bite, but more of them. Pop Rage, Greater Bloodrage cast "Long Arm" to give me 15' reach, and with Intimidating Prowess and Cornugon Smash it'd be hard for things to get around me without getting smacked and demoralized. And if they get close enough, I'll bite too.
On the bloodrager, I like the idea of the Bloodrider archetype. I give up fast movement, uncanny dodge(and improved) and one bonus feat for a bonded mount and the ability to give him bonuses from my rage and spells? I think it's worth the trade.
I'm thinking about switching Cleave from the bloodline feats out for Blind-Fight, and getting Intimidating Prowess and Cornugon Smash. Levels 1-6 as a rager, then 2 levels of disciple (get that bite for a 3rd natural attack before others even have a 3rd iterative attack) then finish up my rager levels before going Disciple. Still not sure if Levels should be 13/7 or 14/6 - if Indomitable Will is worth giving up for +1 natural armor and 1 FotD1 once/day.
The archaeologist, I'm less sure what I'm going to do in general. Initially, when I first thought of it, I was going to do a dex-based character. But I had trouble not with amount of feats, but feat progression, and the relevant end stats wouldn't have been much higher endgame, though dex would have been slightly higher on the way there. So I thought about just a well-rounded one. I don't want to give up too much casting since even if not a full caster, I believe the spells have a lot of value. Initially, I thought about doing an Eldritch Knight but I'd need a level in a martial class for proficiency. And the only benefits were fighter levels, a few bonus feats, *slightly* higher end-game BAB (and an iterative attack with a minimal bonus - pfff), slightly higher potential hit dice.
So I started looking at how many feats I'd actually *need* to take, and that character has surprisingly few "set" feats that are necessary if built from a Str-perspective. But, as I said, better weapons for a character who will be a solid secondary melee would be very desirable. And the cutoff levels, in my mind, are 12 and 17. The benefits for an Archaeologist between 12 and 17 aren't worth the trade off of what you'd get from a good PrC, or even a small dip that enhances what you already do. At 12 you get an Advanced Talent and you have +3 (4 with fate's favored) luck bonus, at 16 you get your second Advanced Talent and 17 you get your max luck bonus. Since you don't get performance abilities, there's no benefit going past that. So what would be good for 3 levels? Well, a few levels of a martial class. What about 8 levels? Well, at that point it needs to be a PrC that advances spellcasting, I think.
That's why I was thinking of 4 levels or so in Disciple - +4 strength couldn't hurt, a little extra natural armor, advances 3 of the spellcasting levels and gives some extra HP. And it could be taken even without any martial proficiency - which I'd still like - but I don't know about going any further than 4 levels.
The Archaeologist is the one I could use the most help with, in general.
I wouldn't worry about the Bard too much since the Bloodrager seems pretty cool.
The Mount seems like a strong choice to me. It is an extra combatant, after all, and it might enhance your movement capabilities at least at some levels.
I like your plans to intimidate. Be sure to grab a Cruel weapon for you or perhaps even better your Mount. The Hurtful feat is also really great.
Decided to focus on the rager since it's what I want to play.
Only now that I decided, honest thought has me wondering about the archetype. I like it in concept - and a part of me loves the idea of it sharing my "Form of the Dragon" ability when I enter rage so that I'd have 2 Large Gold or Green dragons, but it would cap out at an effective level of 14 with Boon Companion, 10 without, and in the endgame would have trouble actually hitting anything, I think. Whereas I, with massive strength and full BAB and other bonuses, reasonably expect to be swinging with a +30 something, it would realistically top out at around +20ish at best (16 starting str, 2 from its "growth spurt", 2 extra when I'm raging, +4 bonus, +6 from FotD2=+10, 9 BAB, and a +3 Amulet of Mighty Fists=22) and would have much fewer hit points.
And just buying a mount is inexpensive, so if it's not going to be a combatant then I'm not sure there's a good reason to be a Bloodrider. And I'm not really planning on mounted combat.
The only other archetype I like is the Steelblood, but I don't like losing DR so I think I might just be a straight Bloodrager. I dislike Primalist because I feel like it's truly broken - there's no downside to it at all, it's just a straight voluntary trade if you don't like some of your bloodline powers.
I'm also considering dropping the Eldritch Heritage line. +6 Strength is nice, but it'll already get pretty high without EH. And without EH, I won't have to worry about ever raising Cha past 14. And it frees up 3 whole feats that I can use for other things - like Riving Strike, Raging vitality, and other rage feats. It's a loss of 3 points of damage per swing(not counting multipliers), but is it worth it? Maybe. Besides that, just thinking of dropping Quick Draw - once in melee and in rage, I'm planning to use natural attacks most of the time anyway.
Hurtful and Arcane Strike don't play well together, but I'd guess that Hurtful will generate more damage overall, and it certainly seems better for getting in two attacks when you need to use a Move action.
I'd guess the Mount would be pretty effective, especially if you get into stuff like Paired Opportunist, which you could easily do if you drop Quick Draw etc. Of course you could focus on other stuff too. I'm a big fan of unarmed strikes and think Snake Style could be pretty cool for somebody with an Amulet of Mighty Fists and really high Str.
