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I am curious about something. Outside of combat I coat my masterwork gauntlet of cold iron in Blue Whinnis poison. When in combat I cast shocking grasp and hold the charge thus not expending it as a free action during the round it was brought about.
Having done all this, I then hit a creature with my gauntlet having made the DC check. Is this an armed attack or an unarmed attack? The gauntlet is unarmed but the shocking grasp is an armed. Am I subject to an AoO or not? Also, does my attack gain the +3 circumstance attack bonus to hitting foes with metal armor/weapon provided by the shocking grasp spell if I am hitting with my gauntlet like above for the AC and not touch.
A fallow up to this is about the above mentioned poison; Blue Whinnis. When would the secondary effect kick in? I am assuming is begins when the main effect is finished.
*FYI*
I do not have the improved unarmed feat.
My weapon is the simple unarmed attack gauntlet from the core rule book.
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1) You are using a gauntlet. That is a weapon. While it is in the unarmed category you ARE armed with an actual weapon and therefore attacking with the gauntlet does not give an opponent an AoO. Improved Unarmed Combat is only necessary if your not armed. You are. With a gauntlet.
2) You are holding a charge of shocking grasp. That is a weaponlike spell and as such trying to discharge it in melee does not cause an AoO from your enemy. Normally you would do a touch attack to discharge the spell but you also have the option to make a lethal attack at normal AC (rather than touch AC) to add in weapon damage onto the total.
3) The rules on rider attacks state that a weapon must hit and do enough damage to bypass a targets DR to have any additional effects get through such as poison. Since the poison on your gauntlet is an injury poison and not just a contact poison you must hit with a standard melee attack (not touch) with the gauntlet and do damage for the poison to affect the target.
4) If you do 3, you also will discharge your shocking grasp spell on the same target.
5) You have the option of instead doing a touch attack instead and only discharging your Shocking Grasp spell. Note this will not do gauntlet damage or have any chance of delivering the poison since you did not do a normal melee attack with the gauntlet.
6) Your attack ONLY gets the +3 Circumstance bonus to hit if your enemy is wearing metal. Since both a touch attack or a regular melee attack will discharge the Shocking Grasp the +3 would apply to either one as long as your ENEMY has metal on them. Not you.
7) The main effect of a poison is what happens as soon as the target fails it's save, which is the first round of the poisons effect. In this case the target will take one Con damage.
The secondary effect is what takes place the next round (on the poisoners turn) and the succeeding rounds of the poisons duration. This is when the poisoned target can attempt another save to end the Blue Whinnis poison. If they fail that save they fall unconscious for 1D3 hours.
8) Note that should you opt to do a touch attack to only discharge the Shocking Grasp spell on an enemy before doing a standard attack with the gauntlet, you will use the dose of Blue Winnis poison to no effect. As per the poison rules hitting or even touching a target with the weapon will use the poison. Since Blue Whinnis is an injury poison and not a contact poison, an actual melee attack with the poisoned weapon that does damage is needed to have the poison work. The touch attack from the shocking grasp would merely wipe off the poison harmlessly.
Gilfalas is spot-on, and complete in the summary.
Ummm, wouldn't you need to be a magus with Spellstrike in order to deal the gauntlet damage and the shocking grasp damage? I mean that's the whole point of the ability isn't it?
I don't think it's possible for him to discharge the shocking grasp (intentionally) and deal weapon damage at the same time.
Now the OP sounds like he is probably a magus, but he doesn't actually state it. And I'm just concerned other people might read this and not make the connection and assume they can use their weapons to deliver touch attack spells.
If you punch with the gauntlet against their real AC you can deliver both the poison and the zap.
If you touch with the zap you have no means of delivering the poison. (thats assuming that the zap doesn't just fry the poison)
Actually, that's a good point. Spellstrike might be required to deliver the touch spell with what is technically a weapon. Clearly most casters can't deliver a touch spell with a longsword, but it's an interesting edge condition that while you can deliver the touch (as a touch) while wearing a gauntlet, if you penetrate the target's AC (clearly having touched), you can't.
That'd be one of those things that as RAW says you can't do a thing, but many DMs would probably allow. I know I wouldn't disallow a three-round setup that does three rounds worth of results.
Yeah, then you can't deliver the shocking grasp with the gauntlet at all. It is a weapon, and you cannot use weapons to deliver touch attacks unless you are a magus.
Benefit: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
So, if you try to haymaker someone with the gauntlet to deliver the poisonyou'd draw the AoO. The gauntlet is still an unarmed strike and unarmed strikes can deliver touch attacks.
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Claxon, what then would happen? I have Blue Whinnis poison coated on my masterwork gauntlet of cold iron & also have a shocking grasp that had been cast yet not used on a foe.
When I make an attack with my gauntlet(unarmed category) for AC does the shocking grasp hold in my hand and wait to be used for a touch attack on a different round?
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ZapVenom the wizard: I attempt to punch him
Zapvenom draws an AoO (because a gauntlet is still unarmed)
If zapvenom is alive after that, he attacks regular ac
If the attack hits, he deals 1d3+strength lethal damage, and the poison, and the zap.
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BigNorseWolf, with shocking grasp applied to my gauntlet am I still subject to an attack of opportunity for the gauntlet attack? Gauntlets are unarmed but shocking grasp is a spell-weapon and thus armed.
A similar question would be, if one attacks with a dagger in one's main hand and a gauntlet in ones off hand(sans improved unarmed attack), would such a one be subject to an AoO?
BigNorseWolf, with shocking grasp applied to my gauntlet am I still subject to an attack of opportunity for the gauntlet attack?
Yes: if you want to deliver the poison.
Combat under "holding the charge"
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
The gauntlet doesn't make your attack armed (if it did you couldn't make the touch attack with it)
Gauntlets are unarmed but shocking grasp is a spell-weapon and thus armed.
A similar question would be, if one attacks with a dagger in one's main hand and a gauntlet in ones off hand(sans improved unarmed attack), would such a one be subject to an AoO?
Yes. That attack is unarmed, you have to get way closer than you'd like and leave yourself open to an attack to do it without training.
Alternatively, if zapwizard doesn't want to be punched in the face, he can make a touch attack and zap, but then won't poison. He can't have it both ways though.
Alternatively, if zapwizard doesn't want to be punched in the face, he can make a touch attack and zap, but then won't poison 1d3 or strength bonus. He can't have it both ways.
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Alternatively, if zapwizard doesn't want to be punched in the face, he can make a touch attack and zap, but then won't poison 1d3 or strength bonus. He can't have it both ways.
Until I am level 3 and able to get the improved unarmed attack feat, I may have to take an AoO to the chin or attack someone who has already expended their AoO.
I know how to eat up an AoO too; my summon monster 1. If I have a monster out and they do something to provoke an AoO then the AoO is gone. Side note, I have augment summoning & master of pentacles so my infernal dog could defiantly play dynomutt to my blue falcon punch.
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8) Note that should you opt to do a touch attack to only discharge the Shocking Grasp spell on an enemy before doing a standard attack with the gauntlet, you will use the dose of Blue Winnis poison to no effect. As per the poison rules hitting or even touching a target with the weapon will use the poison. Since Blue Whinnis is an injury poison and not a contact poison, an actual melee attack with the poisoned weapon that does damage is needed to have the poison work. The touch attack from the shocking grasp would merely wipe off the poison harmlessly.
Can I crab something with my gauntlet while the poison is on it without wiping it off? I am thinking the next thing it touches is where it goes no matter what. I will need to remember this because if I have poison on my gauntlet and need to wipe it off after a battle I could do so harmlessly on whatever is at hand because this particular poison in injury and not contact. If it were contact and I needed to pee...
It is also important to remember because while I can do semantic components with the gauntlet hand I may not be able to wield a want in the same hand.
Can I crab something with my gauntlet while the poison is on it without wiping it off? I am thinking the next thing it touches is where it goes no matter what.
The next attack you make with the poisoned weapon is what uses up the poison, whether it affects the target or not. If your using the 'Grab' combat manuever, that is an attack and that would wipe the poison off. If your simply grabbing 'an object' or something that does not require a combat roll, your poison should be ok.
Gauntlets have no restriction in what you can hold or wield in the gauntleted hand. You can use a wand in that hand just fine.
I should point out that on revue my #1 above is NOT correct. You would need Improved Unarmed Strike to use the gauntlet and not cause an AoO. I would edit the post to correct it but it has been too long.
Also remember that if you do not have the Use Poison class feature that you have a 5% chance to poison yourself whenever you apply poison to a weapon and even with that you poison yourself with the weapon whenever you roll a natural 1 on the attack with a poisoned weapon.
Gilfalas is spot-on, and complete in the summary.
Thank you for the kind words Anguish but sadly I did screw up on #1 as noted above. Hopefully my correction helps.
Gilfalas, do I also have to roll to see if I contract the poison when I hit someone with it? I hope I'm not having to avoid the 5% chance two times.
There are two chances to poison yourself:
1) When you apply the poison to the weapon you have a 5% chance to poison yourself.2) When you roll a natural 1 on attack with the poisoned weapon you automatically poison yourself.
If your character has the 'Posion Use' class ability, then #1 no longer happens.
As far as I know there is no way to remove the #2.