I've been through this cunundrum before, and the forum advice has always been solid. Also, I think I am suffering from a 'too many options' paralysis of sort, so I am looking for ideas.
My group is tackling a hard as heck dungeon crawl and we're starting at level 4 - team is built out of two Arcanists (one more blasty and another more supporty as a White Mage), a Fighter going along the Bodyguard route, a Psychic, an Unchained Rogue, and me.
I started out playing a Paladin, for which I got some very good advice right here on the boards, but she was completely mauled over big time. I think she was as solidly built as she could be, but really there was no chance she could have survived that encounter, focused as she was.
Anyways, I now am at a crossroads:
- I didn't actually get to play my Paladin. There was one fight and BOOM! DEAD!
- Neither the GM nor the group are opposed to me building another Paladin again. Heck, I could even build her exactly like the last one (as a proof of concept of sorts), though... It feels kinda funky bringing in 'the same character with a different name', and also kinda defeats the purpose of character death, doesn't it?
- On the other hand, the fight and ensuing small amount of downtime really evidenced some of the group's shortcomings;
- Healing power is lacking - no once can reliably use a wand of CLW (except for the now dead Paladin). At least three of the groups' members have UMD, but sitting at +6, +7 and +8
- There is absolutely no way of addressing condition removal at this point
- For the time being the group is not buff enough to whitstand a serious fight without at least a small dose of combat healing. As an example, last fight my Paladin was Protected from Evil, using LoH on herself almost every round, taking some decent heals from our White Mage, and still she went down. Ok, again, last fight was not the best example, but still...
- And last fight was actually not too bad in the fact the bad guys focused the 'tanks' - had they not done that, and more deaths would have occurred, because the group is kinda fragile
Based on all this, I am looking at building a character which:
- Can be consistently on the frontline (good AC and HP, layered defenses, etc);
- Packs some decent divine power (healing and removal);
- Hits hard, or at least hits hard in a way that will still be meaningful as he levels up;
- This time around, and for a change I am not obsessed about skills, so let's say 3 skill points per level :D
I have gone back and forth between a couple of ideas, but can't seem to make up my mind:
- Back to Paladin - only thing apparently lacking is healing power, though since she can heal herself quite competently, it mitigates some of the problem. Condition removal is... I'm not sure. Mercies will help, but not as needed I guess. Disease, stat loss...
- Warpriest - tough, hits like a ton of bricks, HPs are not as impressive as a d10 class though that shouldn't be an issue. He's like a wrecking ball of destruction as levels pile on (I would probably play a 'standard' Warpriest since I am not that knowlegeable about the class), and can try for some crowd control with trip builds and such with the bonus feats. What I fear may be sorely lacking is the healing part;
- Cleric - I think if I built him correctly (perhaps an Evangelist? a Crusader?), he could play most of the parts above? I do prefer the Warpriest action economy, but Cleric has more spells and more spell levels. Heck, would it be acceptable to dip Warpriest for the Heavy Armor Proficiency and some other (small) goodies, and take it from there?
- Oracle - there are so many ways to build one of these it is just crazy :D I have thought of Spirit Guide Battle Oracle (Life Spirit) and Spirit Guide Life Orcale (Battle Spirit), Elven Ancient Lorekeeper for the Arcane spells like Mirror Image and Shield, Warsighted for the Feat Flexibility... Oh my...
- Inquisitor - I played the class once and LOVED it. I'm concerned about the AC (since Feats do not abound), but again, a Warpriest dip..?
- Druid - I have the feeling it could be a reasonable fit. I just plain don't know how to build one :P
So, as you can see, I CLEARLY need help! Any feedback/opinions/advice would be welcome for a 25 pt buy :D
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You haven't mentioned Shaman, but they are also amazingly powerful and competent frontliners to boot. Plus their spell list is redonk and they have several good archetypes (though I think Witch Doctor is probably the one you'd enjoy the most for the healing abilities).
In any case, from what I'm reading it seems that you would probably enjoy playing an Inquisitor or Warpriest the most.
Both are really competent frontliners, but Inquisitor is better at blowing things up while Warpriest is better at complex builds with lots of feats.
Hmm this sounds tricky but I think with the group composition as is you don't want a Cleric or Inquisitor as they need a standard action to buff before combat. That leaves Warpriest and PAladin of which Warpriest prolly offers more out of combat utility.
Then again a Cleric with the right traits can quicken divine favor from level 5 onward and also has magic vestment at level 5 which makes his AC competive (if he uses a shield).
Oh, two thoughts!
1. You can also probably consider something like an Occultist. Abjuration is quite a good implement, and it can be combined with Transmutation for a really good frontliner.
2. Since Human Warpriests have a ton of feats to throw away... maybe a Warpriest using Tower Shields and Mobile Bulwark Style featline? Could be an interesting character. Maybe using the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain archetype to affect battle even more.
Dwarf Inquisitor with travel domain. Get Steel Soul, Heavy Armor and carry a shield. Yes, it will lower your damage but the inquisitor has quite a few damage sources that don't care for two-handed wielding (judgement, divine favor, bane, precise strike) so your damage wil still be quite good when you need it. Travel domain gives you mobility. You could also go with the Exploration subdomain for some scouting/utility.
Inquisitors don't need to have low AC. Most only choose to have low AC because it increases their damage by a bit. But for the Inquisitor, the damage difference is much smaller than for many other classes.
You haven't mentioned Shaman, but they are also amazingly powerful and competent frontliners to boot. Plus their spell list is redonk and they have several good archetypes (though I think Witch Doctor is probably the one you'd enjoy the most for the healing abilities).
In any case, from what I'm reading it seems that you would probably enjoy playing an Inquisitor or Warpriest the most.
Both are really competent frontliners, but Inquisitor is better at blowing things up while Warpriest is better at complex builds with lots of feats.
I did forget Shaman indeed Secret Wizard :P
How would you go about building such a Shaman at level 4? Straight up Witch Doctor with high STR, Battle Spirit, and go to town? :D
I admit I am mostly torn between Warpriest and Inquisitor, but as an Inquisitor it means I would have to put the condition removal spells on my already short spell list. This worries me. As for Warpriest, I'm not sure he would simply heal enough, even though that should never be his role by far.
Why would you rate these ahead of a Cleric though?
Hmm this sounds tricky but I think with the group composition as is you don't want a Cleric or Inquisitor as they need a standard action to buff before combat. That leaves Warpriest and PAladin of which Warpriest prolly offers more out of combat utility.
Then again a Cleric with the right traits can quicken divine favor from level 5 onward and also has magic vestment at level 5 which makes his AC competive (if he uses a shield).
Alex, wouldn't it be enough to take for example Heavy Armor Proficiency at level 1 (not my prime choice for a feat mind you, hence my idea about dipping Warpriest, in spite of the dreadful, dreadful dent to BAB...) to put me on par with AC with Warpriest?
Also, as for the swift action buffing, it is indeed a sweet thing - as combat starts, and as combat rolls on :D
Oh, two thoughts!
1. You can also probably consider something like an Occultist. Abjuration is quite a good implement, and it can be combined with Transmutation for a really good frontliner.
2. Since Human Warpriests have a ton of feats to throw away... maybe a Warpriest using Tower Shields and Mobile Bulwark Style featline? Could be an interesting character. Maybe using the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain archetype to affect battle even more.
But but but, does the Occultist pack any healing power? I know close to zero about Occult classes...
Dang, Mobile Bulwark Style IS cool - I did not know it. Though... The fighter in the group is mostly sword and board, so at least one of us should be damaging stuff HARD, right?
Dwarf Inquisitor with travel domain. Get Steel Soul, Heavy Armor and carry a shield. Yes, it will lower your damage but the inquisitor has quite a few damage sources that don't care for two-handed wielding (judgement, divine favor, bane, precise strike) so your damage wil still be quite good when you need it. Travel domain gives you mobility. You could also go with the Exploration subdomain for some scouting/utility.
Inquisitors don't need to have low AC. Most only choose to have low AC because it increases their damage by a bit. But for the Inquisitor, the damage difference is much smaller than for many other classes.
The one Inquisitor I have played as a frontliner was kinda like that, but she went with a rapier and shield - I admit the damage with all the buffs running actually racked up to be quite decent, but again, like above I am worried none of us will be hurting the bad guys HARD enough to take them down in an efficient time frame, if two of the melee damage dealers are packing sword and shield.
As an example, in our last fight we were beset by several enemies - even focusing them down (even though we didn't do it the most effective way possible I admit it), we were not dishing nearly enough damage to take them out as quickly as we should - that is why my Paladin died :'(
Sword and board is totally legit for an inquisitor. And spending a feat on HAP is also legit. If you're not going Dwarf and picking up Steel Soul there's not all too many worthwhile feats for an inquisitor anyhow. The one big issue with heavy armor for inquisitors is that Stalwart (level 11 ability) doesn't work in Heavy armor but there's a few Archetypes which allow you to trade it out and by then you can afford Mithral Heavy Armor if need be.
There is the Shielded Brace feat from AMH which allows you to combine a two handed weapon and shield so keep that in mind for any tanking build.
The Inquisitors biggest limitation is his short spell list (so you could consider going Human or Half Orc for more spells) and compared to the warpriest he's far slower at buffing.
If you wanna bring extra meat to the table the Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor is truly bonkers.
If you already have a rogue in your party you could also consider Sanctified Slayer as it benefits greatly from a flanking partner.
Both of these archetypes are widely considered superior to the base inquisitor (which as you likely know is a very strong class in the first place).
It has been a very long time since I have played with an animal companion - I miss it :D
Would you have any input on how to build the Sacred Huntsmaster?
I'll try to crunch it on my own but... Any suggestions on pets, or feats that could prove useful?
One last question, because I think I have seen this debate before - isn't the loss of judgment just too bad to take in? :D
Based on recent experience, I could endorse the idea of a Shaman with the Battle Spirit, maybe using the Speaker for the Past archetype to get some juicy Time/Ancestor revelations.
You give up the flexibility of wandering hex, but it gets some very nice revelations like: Temporal Celerity, Time Flicker, Time Hop, Time Sight, Spirit of the Warrior. (For me, I was having a hard time figuring out how to combine being a battle shaman with the benefits of grabbing Lore via wandering hex for extra spells -- the MADness was too much!)
Going Half-Orc get you Darkvision and some extra Weapon Proficiencies (perhaps to use a Falchion, through using reach tactics via a Longspear is also a decent option), while the Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored helps boost your saves considerably. Using a 25 point buy helps with the usual Shaman MAD-ness, too.
In terms of Hexes, I'd be favouring the buffing route over debuffing (ie Fortune/Chant) because the focus won't be on boosting DCs, though I could also see the merits of focusing on other utility stuff with things like Shapeshifting/Secret/Fetish (the latter of which could definitely pay off in the right campaign).
The Favored Class Bonus will probably be used for HP for the first couple of levels, then used to pick up things from the Cleric spell list, like Divine Favor (1st), Shield of Faith (1st), Defending Bone (2nd), Grace (2nd), etc.
The build below is a general suggestion up to level 7, and could be tweaked in many different ways (to drop WIS to 14 and boost INT back up to make up for the skill point deficit, for example). Level 8 is actually a very nice boost, too, as you'll get the Enemies' Bane ability from Battle Spirit and really b able to start laying down a beating.
Overall, the upside is that you'll be decent in combat, with good mobility (esp via Flight hex and Time Hop revelation) while having lots of other options, including full 9th level spellcasting for buffs, status condition removal, etc. Sure, you probably won't be as good at any given thing as a more specialized character, but you'll be a great asset to the team, and the versatility makes for an enjoyable playing experience.
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Race: Half-Orc (w/ Sacred Tattoo alternate racial trait)
Class: Shaman (Speaker for the Past)
Spirit: Battle
Traits: Fate's Favored (to combo w/ Sacred Tattoo for +2 to all saves); something else interesting/flavorful/useful
STR: 18 (w/ +2 from race)
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 15 (put +1 @ 4th)
CHA: 10
Feats/Hexes/Revelations:
1- Toughness (Feat)*
2- Fortune (Hex)
3- Weapon Focus (Feat)**
4- Chant (Hex); Temporal Celerity (Revelation)
5- Extra Hex: Witch Hex (Flight) (Feat)
6- Time Flicker (Revelation)
7- Extra Revelation: Time Hop (Feat)
*: Or Combat Reflexes, if going reach route. Toughness could also be retained for something better later, if DM allowed.
**: Or perhaps Power Attack?
It has been a very long time since I have played with an animal companion - I miss it :D
Would you have any input on how to build the Sacred Huntsmaster?
I'll try to crunch it on my own but... Any suggestions on pets, or feats that could prove useful?
One last question, because I think I have seen this debate before - isn't the loss of judgment just too bad to take in? :D
I lack the time for a full build. I think animal choices that tend to be recommendable are Wolf (One big bite attack-->better mobility and thus better for flanking, plus tripping), Big Cat for Pounce or Wolverine for Amplified Rage Shenanigans. There's also some animal buddy that allegedly has reach so that's also convenient.
Note that handle animal isn't on your class skill list.Otherwise it's built as a standard inquisitor. Since you get animal focus Planar Focus is a strong choice for a feat.
Personally if you want an AC I feel like it's a stronger class feature than judgement. Then Sacred huntsmaster also gives you animal focus so whats not to like...
Honestly, this party would do well with an Oradin (multiclass Paladin/Oracle).
There's a solid guide to the concept here. The basic idea is utilizing the Oracle (Life) Life Link ability to remove damage from the party and take it yourself, then use swift action Lay On Hands to keep yourself alive while still being able to hit things, and using your Channel Energy to top people off out of combat.
It's a perfectly capable combatant (only loses one point of BAB in a 4 level Oracle dip), has access to some solid low level spells, and high saving throws.
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Another option to consider can be a Half Elf Oracle with Ancient Lorekeeper archetype and Battle Mystery
The half Elf part is to gain access to Paragon Surge, with it you can have access to more spells
With Ancient Lorekeeper you can have access to defensive arcane spells like Shield, Displacement, Fly, Haste, etc.
Battle Mystery is just amazing, give you so many martial stuff
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You could try a Hunter.
You said you miss animal companions and it can use CLW wand.
Can control later in the game (Level 7+) with a Ankylosaurus that Dazes and/or Stuns. Early game even a simple entangle does wonders.
A choice you could do is Hospitalier Paladin with VMC Order of the Stars Cav. Use archery as you damage source from behind the Fighter and Rogue. Nothing Like Smite + Challenge tagged onto an arrow. You handle condition removal with Mercies and Scrolls. Healing should not be a problem as the VMC increases your LoH healing. Every 4 levels the dice goes up by 1d6..to a max of +5d6.
Go for a Cleric (Crusader). Take Heavy Armour feat as your bonus feat. Take Extra Channel and tell the party you're only using channels to heal, the rest of your feats are yours and your spells are for buffing.
@ Kyudoka - well, as a cleric you can always sacrifice a spell slot for a cure wounds if you HAVE to, so any cleric (or oracle) can get the job done. I am not sure if it is worth it taking Crusader, though - do the extra feats make a big difference compared to the regular one? I would actually consider going Holy Vindicator for a pseudo-warpriest and don't mind having fewer feats, but it doesn't seem all that popular.