Dragonrider / Arcane Archer - Gestalt Combos

[magispitt]

So in a campaign that we're going to play (home-brew, but with modules and snippets from adventure paths thrown in) our GM gave us these character creation rules

Character Rules:

Character creation guidelines: starting at first level, 15pt buy, gestalt, 3.5 stuff and 3rd party stuff is fine - I just need to have a link to the source or see it in official writing, any premade or custom races are fine up to a maximum of 14RP - anything 15RP and over will need level adjustments, probably no mythic for now (unless you really want it), one bonus story feat, two traits (and as many extra drawbacks as you like to buy more traits), major drawbacks are similarly allowed though you can’t buy them off with gold later, character starting wealth is the standard or rolled on Roll20, two background skill ranks are given for free each level

I've really got my eye on the dragon rider class, and want to work my way towards an arcane archer. I'd like to be human for a race because of roleplaying reasons, but I'm open to ideas.

What I'm looking for help with is a class (or combination thereof) to gestalt with the dragon rider to complement an arcane archer build. I'm looking to play a "dragon rider X / other class 10-arcane archer 10" assuming the campaign pans out to 20th level.

If it's important, my other two party members look like a vigilante/slayer gestalt with an archery focus, and a barbarian/wizard "or something like that."

Thanks in advance!

[My Self]

Arcane Archer is pretty good if you have a fullcaster, since it lets you pull off stuff like Echean's Excellent Enclosure/Mage's Magnificent Enclosure at high levels- a no-save entrapment that basically only requires you to hit. Dragon Rider has a very strong chassis, but has few synergistic abilities. Using PF classes, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Arcanist are your best entry classes. Casting in armor might be a problem, so you'll want a way to cover that.

Since you're going gestalt, you probably don't want to enter Arcane Archer, since it has slower spell and class feature progression than a gestated class. You'd be better off attempting to mimic its class features using classes such as Magus (Eldritch Archer), since you'll get to benefit from similar class features earlier. Additionally, you'll get a 1/2 price magic bow, which is amazing.

[Olaf the Holy]

Alright, so dragonrider's big problem is the loss of actions you take from the dragon bond.

Honestly, I'd avoid arcane archer. Use Eldritch Archer magus instead, that will allow you to fulfill your niche a lot sooner.

An alternative option is Warlord (dreamscarred press 3pp) into Magehunter (a dreamscarred press 3pp class). This has the downside that, much like the Arcane Archer, it comes online with a 'shoot and cast' ability at level 10, which is hella late.

On the plus side, there's plenty of maneuvers that use ranged attacks, and standard ranged maneuver + swift boost or spellcasting will still allow you a move action to direct your dragon.

I'd recommend Dragonrider 20//Eldritch Archer Magus 20. Technically, Eldritch Scion can't be taken along with Eldritch Archer, but see if your GM will let you anyway, so you can be charisma-based.

Alternatively, Dragonrider 20//Warlord 5/Mage Hunter 10/Warlord +5. This one is probably stronger, and very flavorful, but the magic doesn't come online until level 6, and it doesn't get *good* until level 10.

[Dragonchess Player]

Some options:

If you want the best spells, while focusing on Cha-based casting only, then go dragonrider 20//sorcerer 6/arcane archer 3/sorcerer +11. If you want to boost Str and defenses a little more (which can be useful with a 15-point buy), then dragonrider 20//sorcerer (Draconic bloodline*) 5/dragon disciple 4/arcane archer 3/sorcerer +8 will still gain 9th-level spells (taking Magical Knack (Sorcerer) as one of your traits keeps your CL at your HD). In either case, take Arcane Armor Training at 3rd level and retrain it to Quicken Spell after reaching 11th-12th character level (on gaining 5th-level spells).

Alternately, dragonrider 20//magus (eldritch archer) 6/arcane archer 3/magus +11 can use either Ranged Spellstrike or Imbue Arrow, plus can have both Enhance Arrows (Elemental) and use Arcane Pool to add to their bow. You will need to split focus between Int and Cha, but can learn any magus spell; take Broad Study to use dragonrider spells with Ranged Spellstrike and Spell Blending to learn selected 5th- and 6th-level sorcerer/wizard spells. Because dragonrider casts arcane spells without preparation, you can also go dragonrider 20//magus (eldritch archer) 6/dragon disciple (advance magus spellcasting) 2/arcane archer 2/dragon disciple +2/magus +8 (or magus +3/arcane archer +1/magus +4), gaining a Str and defense boost at the cost of some magus arcana.

One more option, for a more support-focused character (and if you have a copy of Pathfinder Player Companion: Arcane Anthology), would be dragonrider 20//bard (arrowsong minstrel) 6/arcane archer 3/bard +11; arrowsong minstel gains a version of Ranged Spellstrike at 6th level and a limited selection of additional sorcerer/wizard spells in place of some of the bardic performances and other class features. As with the other options, dragonrider 20//bard (arrowsong minstrel) 6/dragon disciple 2/arcane archer 2/dragon disciple +2/bard +8 (or bard +2/arcane archer +1/bard +5) can boost Str and defenses.

*- If you want to boost Str even higher, go crossblooded with Abyssal or Orc bloodline and take Strength of the Abyss/Strength of the Beast instead of Breath Weapon as the 9th-level bloodline power; you lose some spell slots and spells known, but the human FCB can (somewhat) mitigate the loss to spells known (eventually).

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

In original 3.5 Gestalts came with acaution that PrCs should not be used. And you want to combine it with one of the most broken 3rd party classes out there.

Really?

And yes... anything that takes THE iconic monster from D+D, and reduces it to a class feature is by any measure, broken.

[Dragonchess Player]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

In original 3.5 Gestalts came with acaution that PrCs should not be used.

What it actually says is: "A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters." (emphasis mine)

Some prestige classes are not recommended with gestalt characters, not all prestige classes.

[Olaf the Holy]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

In original 3.5 Gestalts came with acaution that PrCs should not be used. And you want to combine it with one of the most broken 3rd party classes out there.

Really?

And yes... anything that takes THE iconic monster from D+D, and reduces it to a class feature is by any measure, broken.

For various reasons, the dragonrider class is actually pretty bad. Are you sure you've read it?

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

In original 3.5 Gestalts came with acaution that PrCs should not be used.

What it actually says is: "A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters." (emphasis mine)

Some prestige classes are not recommended with gestalt characters, not all prestige classes.

FWIW, Arcane Archer seems like the kind of thing they warned against.

Honestly, I don't see the big deal. You probably shouldn't allow straight up mystic theurges, as that leads to stuff like
Wizard//Cleric 3
MT//Fighter 10
Wizard//Cleric +7, which is of course a little silly. But every other pathfinder PRC is probably fine.

[Dragonchess Player]

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

In original 3.5 Gestalts came with acaution that PrCs should not be used.

What it actually says is: "A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters." (emphasis mine)

Some prestige classes are not recommended with gestalt characters, not all prestige classes.

FWIW, Arcane Archer seems like the kind of thing they warned against.

Um, no.

No other class gains Enhance Arrows and (other than in a much more limited version in spellslinger wizard) can "cast" area effect spells through a weapon such as with Imbue Arrow. You cannot ignore class features when making that determination.

What the text was warning about was specific prestige classes that are essentially "gestalt" classes in and of themselves: the mentioned arcane trickster (rogue//wizard or rogue//sorcerer), eldritch knight (fighter//wizard or fighter//sorcerer), and mystic theurge (normally cleric//wizard, cleric//sorcerer, druid//wizard, or druid//sorcerer); I'd also include the 3.5 rage mage (barbarian//wizard or barbarian//sorcerer), sacred fist (cleric//monk), etc. (there were a lot in 3.5) and the Pathfinder battle herald (bard//cavalier) and rage prophet (barbarian//oracle), among others. Prestige classes that expand on a specific theme (i.e., dragon disciple) and (especially) grant abilities not found in "base" classes are not "essentially class combinations."

Just because a prestige class "advances arcane spellcasting and has a full BAB" doesn't make it "essentially a [sorcerer/wizard and fighter] combination."