Hello everyone, I got a random itch to think up a Draconic Bloodrager (Rageshaper, Primalist) that focused on Natural Attacks. My question comes down to whether I want to stick with levels of Bloodrager or if I wanted to switch over to Dragon Disciple for four levels? Dragon Disciple gets a lot of goodies (Str bonus, Natural armor, amazing bite attack, decent saves, etc), but my already stunted spellcasting becomes even slightly more stunted.
Any thoughts?
You are probably better going with pure bloodrager, but the bite attack may be worth it. You should do the dpr calcuations with and without the bite.
I think the advantages of Dragon Disciple outweigh the one level you are behind in casting.
Since you are using natural attacks, the delay of BAB won't hurt you at all and your spells will be uneffective anyway if you could instead deal lots of melee damage.
For spells per day, you can buy runestones of power. The only thing that hurts is the one-level-later-access to the next spell levels.
There's the Robe of Arcane Heritage that lets you gain your bloodline powers 4 Levels earlier. It was written for sorcerers though and there is no FAQ that I know of which clarifies if it is available for bloodragers. But since you seem not to Play in PFS you might convince your GM.
If you're already Primalist, just grab a rage power for a bite attack and natural armor. Well, two feats for the natural armor, but the third one in the chain gives you pounce so you should do that anyway (Beast Totem line). It's even better than DD natural armor.
If you just want Str and NA, dip Alchemist (or if you want to preserve BAB, Mutagenic Mauler). Mutagen is +4 Str and +2 NA for 10 minutes/alchemist level. Keep in mind DD loses BAB at first level anyway though, so Alchemist is no different than DD.
I actually had more written up but completely forgot that Bloodrager and Sorcerer bloodlines are very different. There is almost no point to going DD. Everything DD gets besides the stat increases and blindsense the Bloodrager does better and sooner. And the stat increases are worth what, +2 attack/+3 damage? Is that worth delaying bloodline abilities (unless your GM houserules it) and rage powers by four levels and spell access and BAB by one level?
I agree with Bob, DD not worth it.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: If you're already Primalist, just grab a rage power for a bite attack and natural armor. Well, two feats for the natural armor, but the third one in the chain gives you pounce so you should do that anyway (Beast Totem line). It's even better than DD natural armor.
If you just want Str and NA, dip Alchemist (or if you want to preserve BAB, Mutagenic Mauler). Mutagen is +4 Str and +2 NA for 10 minutes/alchemist level. Keep in mind DD loses BAB at first level anyway though, so Alchemist is no different than DD.
Alright, I forgot about those rage powers. They grant you natural attacks.
But as for the stat boost, one Level dip to Alchemist is a nightmare for Action economy. A Standard Action each round means you effectively lose the first round of combat, while casters burn their first enemy to ashes, ranged chars and some melees full attack. Then, after the fight you've got to announce to your party that you need one hour to make another mutagen in order to be ready for the second fight this day.
Quote: I actually had more written up but completely forgot that Bloodrager and Sorcerer bloodlines are very different. There is almost no point to going DD. Everything DD gets besides the stat increases and blindsense the Bloodrager does better and sooner. And the stat increases are worth what, +2 attack/+3 damage? Is that worth delaying bloodline abilities (unless your GM houserules it) and rage powers by four levels and spell access and BAB by one level? DD advances Bloodrager Draconic Bloodline as well, there was some FAQ about it... so no delay.
The only thing you delay from the Bloodrager class is greater bloodrage and spells.
Prof. Löwenzahn wrote: But as for the stat boost, one Level dip to Alchemist is a nightmare for Action economy. A Standard Action each round means you effectively lose the first round of combat, while casters burn their first enemy to ashes, ranged chars and some melees full attack. Then, after the fight you've got to announce to your party that you need one hour to make another mutagen in order to be ready for the second fight this day. Mutagen is a standard action for 10 minutes of buff. 10 minutes can easily be enough for an entire dungeon. It's definitely good for a couple of battles in indoor areas. Additionally, by that logic the Bloodrager should never use their spells to buff themselves and they'd be delaying access to the one thing that lets them cast spells without blowing an action (Greater Bloodrage). So are they only supposed to use attack spells?
The rebrewing is an issue, sure. Mutagen has more uses than just pointing out how easy to acquire the DD boosts are. It's just, if the OP is only after DD for the stat boosts there's much easier ways to do that. Polymorph spells are another good one (which the Bloodrager would be delaying their access to). "Always on" doesn't mean much if you can have "always on when I need it" or "always on when I have a boss fight".
Prof. Löwenzahn wrote: DD advances Bloodrager Draconic Bloodline as well, there was some FAQ about it... so no delay.
The only thing you delay from the Bloodrager class is greater bloodrage and spells.
Ah, they did finally fix that. But that's not the only thing you delay. You still lose BAB (and therefore delay Power Attack). Not by much, but still. It depends on where you expect the character to stop. Also means you'll never get Tireless Bloodrage or the capstone which means no rage-cycling (which may or may not matter based on rage powers chosen).
Also I have no idea how Primalist and DD would interact. By the most permissive interpretation you could still swap out powers when you get them from DD but you definitely wouldn't get access to higher level powers because those are explicitly based on bloodrager level (so delaying rage power access). Again, depends on whether you were going for Greater Beast Totem pounce or not.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: Mutagen is a standard action for 10 minutes of buff. 10 minutes can easily be enough for an entire dungeon. It's definitely good for a couple of battles in indoor areas. Additionally, by that logic the Bloodrager should never use their spells to buff themselves and they'd be delaying access to the one thing that lets them cast spells without blowing an action (Greater Bloodrage). So are they only supposed to use attack spells? I guess it depends on how the GM initiates combat. My GM almost never grants preparation rounds.I play a melee Alchemist with natural attacks and pounce and it bothers me to no end when enemies engage in a surprise round, then we roll initiative (I'm usually unlucky with that), enemies attack again, then it's my turn, I could full attack, but instead have to start mutagen and can't even move because I'm already surrounded. Then, enemies attack again and I lost half of my HP already before I can attack.
I didn't consider the free buff with greater bloodrage. That hurts indeed. As you said, it depends on the Level cap. When they end at Level 12, I would say DD, when they reach more than 14, perhaps stay at Bloodrager. Rage cycling is nice, but he won't pick many 1/rage powers on 4/8/12 and on 16 I would prefer the auto form of the dragon II, because it's the capstone of the build.
As for spells...yes, I think bloodragers should only cast ranged attack spells for when they can't reach targets in melee and hours/level buffs. No short duration buffs in combat, unless with greater bloodrage or quickened.
I absolutely love the idea of a Mutagenic Mauler Brawler dip, but I already have one character lined up that does that and I don't want every one of my characters pulling the same trick.
Hmm, with that errata saying that bloodline powers increase then I can discuss a bit of give-and-take with my GM of how Primalist would interact with a Dragon Disciple's bloodline progression and would set a bit of precedent for the Robe of Arcane Heritage working for Bloodrager.
Considering how long games tend to go, delaying/never getting Greater Bloodrage and Indomitable Will certainly hurts.
Thanks everyone for the input, I'll keep it in mind if/when the opportunity to play this guy arises.
I kind of think the big draw for primalist is getting pounce and come and get me. DD will delay that.
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