Hi people. I'm trying to optmize the stats for my Unchained Monk in a campaing with low point buy(15 pt).
Is it worth to get VMC Wizard(Wood School) for +5 in Wis and Dex at level 20?
In using a simple build, most of my feats will come from the monk bonus feats(Horn of the Criosphinx and Medusa's Wrath), so I'm not that feat starved.
what level are you starting at and what level do you plan on ending at?
I'm not a fan of VMC in most cases, and most games never see 20th level.
I really wouldn't play a monk on 15 point buy. 15pt buy is a math error, 20 is a better representation of rolled stat averages.
Even dex based, you are too mad to make it work.
Starting at level 5 and the game is planned for a duration of 1 year.
If not a monk, maybe a Sacred Fist?
Sacred Fist is worse, post-errata. What races and books are allowed?
I feel that Unchained does better on the low pt buy the normal monk though.
16+2/12/13/7/14+2/7-2
18/12/13/7/16/5
As an oread or Oni-Spawn Tiefling
18/12/13/5/16/7
Qlippoth-SpawnTiefling
18/12/13/7/16/7
as dual talent human
feel these stats work out okay and will be comparable to other 15ptbuy characters.
Marcus Steelfeather wrote: Starting at level 5 and the game is planned for a duration of 1 year.
If not a monk, maybe a Sacred Fist?
Is there a plan to know when you're going to level?
If not I'd focus on the lv5-12 range and not worry much about higher than that.
Leveling 'til lvl 10 every 2 sessions.
Then, leveling 'til lvl 15 every 3 sessions.
Finally, 4 sessions p/lvl until 20.
And we're allowed to use anything that is avaiable on pfsrd.
Get A Temple Sword.
Make it sized for a Large creature with Resize Item if you can't just find it large.
Combine it with Effortless Lace. Now you can use the Large one handed Temple Sword as if it was a medium two-handed weapon, so no penalties. Your monk full attack can be with each hit at 2d6 plus 1.5x strength mod. That's a great start and your fists NEVER get better even in base damage.
You can now easilly get enhancement bonuses like from simply masterwork or others as well as special material.
The Feat Cornugon Smash lets you performing stunning fist through a melee weapon.
An alternative is going full dex and get a Temple Sword jsut a regular medium sized one and apply Effortless Lace to it, now you can use it with Weapon Finesse and get the Agile weapon special quality as soon as possible. This obviously more expensive but the thing is you cannot give weapon special abilities to unarmed strikes so weapon focus remains key. While fisticuffs monk pulls ahead in base damage by level 12 or so, you able to use dex to hit and dex damage will make you far more likely to hit and do more damage.
First option means focusing on Strength, Dex and Wisdom. The second option allows you to focus much more on just Dex and Wis.
ATSD has some good ideas but one correction - it's entirely possible to put weapon special abilities on unarmed strikes, and it's even possible at your starting level 5. An amulet of mighty fists can do it and can be created without an enhancement bonus, unlike a weapon, so an agile AoMF can cost as little as 4000 gp.
You don't do quite as much damage as a str monk, but it can be worth it to not have to hard-dump int to make ends meet.
avr wrote: ATSD has some good ideas but one correction - it's entirely possible to put weapon special abilities on unarmed strikes, and it's even possible at your starting level 5. An amulet of mighty fists can do it and can be created without an enhancement bonus, unlike a weapon, so an agile AoMF can cost as little as 4000 gp.
You don't do quite as much damage as a str monk, but it can be worth it to not have to hard-dump int to make ends meet.
Damn, you're right. That would be way way better.
You still need weapon finesse (if you aren't in a game where that's house ruled to be for free) but you avoid the need for Effortless Lace or Feat Cornugon Smash and then all those monk abilities that say they only work for one particular type of unarmed strike like a knockback kick.
It's really easy to dump int with a +4 skill points per level. 2 skill points per level is still really generous especially with all the other ways that Monk can make some really critical skill checks super good.
It should go without mentioning but getting loads of scrolls or potions of mage armour is way more effective than trying to get Bracers of armour to go high enough. Bracers of armor can still be good but mainly for armour quality such as the Brawling quality which is practially made for monk, +2 to hit AND +2 damage per hit. Untyped bonuses as well.
That does deserve mentioning, that's damn good if you want optimisation build.
Since your strength now sucks, consider investing in splash weapons for ranged attacks as those are strength insensitive.
First off, brawling cannot be added to bracers of armor. They are not light armor, so it's not valid. secondly, brawling is now a +3 enchantment instead of +1, so it's not worth it even if your GM houserules the bracers.
Imbicatus wrote: First off, brawling cannot be added to bracers of armor. They are not light armor, so it's not valid. secondly, brawling is now a +3 enchantment instead of +1, so it's not worth it even if your GM houserules the bracers. If the GM allows it on bracers (and you're spot on that they aren't normally legal), it seems like it would definitely be worth it offensively. 9k for +2 untyped and AoMF +1 for 4k is cheaper than a +2 AoMF at 16k and strictly superior for offense. The main issue is that bracers' special qualities turn off if you have another source of armor bonus, so that means he can't pursue mage armor. For a character who wears armor, though, +1 brawling armor is likely a better investment than a +2 AoMF (since it also gives AC) for the same price (it depends also on whether you count your attacks as magic, whether that's relevant a lot in your game, and whether you have a way to do so when necessary if the answers were no and yes); the main thing is that you can't split it up like you can with the AoMF.
Imbicatus wrote: First off, brawling cannot be added to bracers of armor. They are not light armor, so it's not valid. secondly, brawling is now a +3 enchantment instead of +1, so it's not worth it even if your GM houserules the bracers. Oh come on, the "only light armour" is quite clearly to exclude medium-and-heavy armour. If you really want to rules-lawyer it, then Bracers of Armour overrule that by saying it can take any enhancement bonuses that armour can.
And it has to be a mistake on it being a +3 bonus as on here it's a +1 bonus
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor
Double Checking with another reference source:
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArmor.aspx?Category=ArmorQuality
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArmorDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Brawling
Looking though my copy of Ultimate Equipment confirms it in triplicate. Yup, Brawling is definitely only a +1 equivalent bonus.
Mark Seifter wrote: Imbicatus wrote: First off, brawling cannot be added to bracers of armor. They are not light armor, so it's not valid. secondly, brawling is now a +3 enchantment instead of +1, so it's not worth it even if your GM houserules the bracers. If the GM allows it on bracers (and you're spot on that they aren't normally legal), it seems like it would definitely be worth it offensively. 9k for +2 untyped and AoMF +1 for 4k is cheaper than a +2 AoMF at 16k and strictly superior for offense. The main issue is that bracers' special qualities turn off if you have another source of armor bonus, so that means he can't pursue mage armor. For a character who wears armor, though, +1 brawling armor is likely a better investment than a +2 AoMF (since it also gives AC) for the same price (it depends also on whether you count your attacks as magic, whether that's relevant a lot in your game, and whether you have a way to do so when necessary if the answers were no and yes); the main thing is that you can't split it up like you can with the AoMF. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability.
16,000 gp (+4)
Bracers are still 16000 to get the ability, not 9000. Which puts it at the same price as an AoMF +2. So it could still be worth getting, you get a free +1 ac out of the deal, but you'll never really see higher AC than that.
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote: Imbicatus wrote: First off, brawling cannot be added to bracers of armor. They are not light armor, so it's not valid. secondly, brawling is now a +3 enchantment instead of +1, so it's not worth it even if your GM houserules the bracers. Oh come on, the "only light armour" is quite clearly to exclude medium-and-heavy armour. If you really want to rules-lawyer it, then Bracers of Armour overrule that by saying it can take any enhancement bonuses that armour can.
And it has to be a mistake on it being a +3 bonus as on here it's a +1 bonus
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor
Double Checking with another reference source:
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArmor.aspx?Category=ArmorQuality
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArmorDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Brawling
Looking though my copy of Ultimate Equipment confirms it in triplicate. Yup, Brawling is definitely only a +1 equivalent bonus. Dude, you can't trust anything older than yesterday. The new printing went out. Brawling is +3 not +1 anymore.
Chess Pwn wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: Imbicatus wrote: First off, brawling cannot be added to bracers of armor. They are not light armor, so it's not valid. secondly, brawling is now a +3 enchantment instead of +1, so it's not worth it even if your GM houserules the bracers. If the GM allows it on bracers (and you're spot on that they aren't normally legal), it seems like it would definitely be worth it offensively. 9k for +2 untyped and AoMF +1 for 4k is cheaper than a +2 AoMF at 16k and strictly superior for offense. The main issue is that bracers' special qualities turn off if you have another source of armor bonus, so that means he can't pursue mage armor. For a character who wears armor, though, +1 brawling armor is likely a better investment than a +2 AoMF (since it also gives AC) for the same price (it depends also on whether you count your attacks as magic, whether that's relevant a lot in your game, and whether you have a way to do so when necessary if the answers were no and yes); the main thing is that you can't split it up like you can with the AoMF. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability.
16,000 gp (+4)
Bracers are still 16000 to get the ability, not 9000. Which puts it at the same price as an AoMF +2. So it could still be worth getting, you get a free +1 ac out of the deal, but you'll never really see higher AC than that. Aha, you're right; forgot that they were different than AoMF on that front. It's still offensively a superior purchase to upgrading AoMF+1 to AoMF+2 in that it costs only 33% more for double the effect. But that's just in the hypothetical idea space where we houserule it for bracers. For armor, it's even nicer, which is mostly because bracers are just not very good overall.
Mark Seifter wrote: Imbicatus wrote: First off, brawling cannot be added to bracers of armor. They are not light armor, so it's not valid. secondly, brawling is now a +3 enchantment instead of +1, so it's not worth it even if your GM houserules the bracers. If the GM allows it on bracers (and you're spot on that they aren't normally legal), it seems like it would definitely be worth it offensively. 9k for +2 untyped and AoMF +1 for 4k is cheaper than a +2 AoMF at 16k and strictly superior for offense. The main issue is that bracers' special qualities turn off if you have another source of armor bonus, so that means he can't pursue mage armor. For a character who wears armor, though, +1 brawling armor is likely a better investment than a +2 AoMF (since it also gives AC) for the same price (it depends also on whether you count your attacks as magic, whether that's relevant a lot in your game, and whether you have a way to do so when necessary if the answers were no and yes); the main thing is that you can't split it up like you can with the AoMF. I'd like to see the GM try to enforce that rule.
You can't be a GM if no one turns up for your session, since this an advice forum, I advise that monk definitely earns something like that and with all the hassle it is getting mage armor coverage up and keeping it up. Anyone should be able to see what they were going for with that, they clearly meant "if you have armour which gives a higher armour bonus" because they don't want people stacking multiple armour special ablities on the cheap. But Mage armor inherently doesn't have any armor special abilities that could be associated with it THIS IS THE ONLY WAY MONK CAN GET ANY ARMOR SPECIAL ABILITIES!
Well, there is one rules legal way this can work and that's Automatic Bonus Progression:
"The character can attune herself to one suit of armor or one shield in her possession; she can change that attunement once per day. If she selects a normal set of clothing as her armor, it counts as having a starting enhancement bonus of +0. The attuned suit of armor gains a +1 enhancement bonus at 4th level... "
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/automatic-bonus-progressi on
It's too long-winded to fully quote but the gist is you can have an attuned wonderbra of +1 enhancement bonus and that can go straight to a special ability without needing to invest the +1 enhancement bonus first and isn't deactivated by having anything like Mage armor in effect. This can also get "Agile" unarmed strike as early as level 2.
Though you still have the catch-22 seemingly perfectly designed to screw Monk in how Monk categorically cannot wear armor and Brawling can only be on light armor.
because if you're not getting brawling it's not like you are reigning in the power of the monk... there's still the Large Temple Sword with Effortless Lace. That's still there, that's still BS but what it isn't:
Fun.
People want to play a monk, a proper Monk, they want to be the Kung Fu master who actually does punches and kicks and they want it to freaking work and not be left so far behind by almost any soldier build.
Yes, offensively wise they'll be an attractive pickup still at some point. It's just now it cuts into your AC even more(2) than it's old version at same price. It's delayed from being something you could get around lv4-5 pretty easy to being something more like lv9 or higher AND it's also a super big and costly jump, that feels bad. You sit on this bad armor, with the temptation to make it a +2 for more AC for so cheap, yet you can't because you need to save up 15000 to upgrade it. I'd love (and use this idea for future abilities) is an upgrading feature. for this it could be like. +1 to get the grapple, another +1 to make it +1/+1 and another to make it the full deal. It feels so much nicer being able to gradually improve than needing to make such a big jump at once.
Chess Pwn wrote: Yes, offensively wise they'll be an attractive pickup still at some point. It's just now it cuts into your AC even more(2) than it's old version at same price. It's delayed from being something you could get around lv4-5 pretty easy to being something more like lv9 or higher AND it's also a super big and costly jump, that feels bad. You sit on this bad armor, with the temptation to make it a +2 for more AC for so cheap, yet you can't because you need to save up 15000 to upgrade it. I'd love (and use this idea for future abilities) is an upgrading feature. for this it could be like. +1 to get the grapple, another +1 to make it +1/+1 and another to make it the full deal. It feels so much nicer being able to gradually improve than needing to make such a big jump at once. Yep, something like a lesser brawling +2 equivalent that gives +1 offensive stuff that can upgrade to full brawling as a +3 could be an interesting thing to add somewhere down the line. It's a fact, as you aptly indicate, that granting a +2 that stacks with everything to hit and damage, at any +equivalent (even +5), a +1 brawling armor (maybe with a pearl of power III added on so your party caster will magic vestment you back the enhancement you aren't getting) would be the best (in cost to benefit ratio) offensive accuracy/damage item you can buy at some point in your character's career, and it's an issue with the overall idea of making a +equivalent armor enhancement that gives an offensive bonus that stacks with everything else, violating the usual design for flat-cost vs +equivalent, which is roughly "if it matters what the + is on the armor or how good it is at being armor, the enhancement should be a + equivalent, and if it's totally unrelated like a skill bonus or shooting fireballs, then it should be a flat cost".
Chess Pwn wrote: Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote: Imbicatus wrote: First off, brawling cannot be added to bracers of armor. They are not light armor, so it's not valid. secondly, brawling is now a +3 enchantment instead of +1, so it's not worth it even if your GM houserules the bracers. Oh come on, the "only light armour" is quite clearly to exclude medium-and-heavy armour. If you really want to rules-lawyer it, then Bracers of Armour overrule that by saying it can take any enhancement bonuses that armour can.
And it has to be a mistake on it being a +3 bonus as on here it's a +1 bonus
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor
Double Checking with another reference source:
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArmor.aspx?Category=ArmorQuality
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArmorDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Brawling
Looking though my copy of Ultimate Equipment confirms it in triplicate. Yup, Brawling is definitely only a +1 equivalent bonus. Dude, you can't trust anything older than yesterday. The new printing went out. Brawling is +3 not +1 anymore. Well that sounds like a worthy purchase /sarcasm .
Why don't they just ban it.
Making it a +3 bonus is taking the mickey, going from "just about cost effective to make the monk that people want to play be viable at early levels" to "This single item now costs your entire wealth budget up to level 6 and as you can't spend more than half of your budget on a single item you cannot possibly get it till level 8."
No one is going to spend half their wealth at level 8 for a measly +2 to unarmed strike, especially as technically a monk cannot even use it.
Okay, clearly forget about playing monk as monk has such potential to be played. Just get a temple sword as I suggest. Or jsut give up entirely. Paizo has made it loud and clear, they don't want this class to be competitive. Fundamentally. If GM isn't willing to house-rule common sense adaptations then give up. Play fighter. Play wizard.
Mark Seifter wrote: Chess Pwn wrote: Yes, offensively wise they'll be an attractive pickup still at some point. It's just now it cuts into your AC even more(2) than it's old version at same price. It's delayed from being something you could get around lv4-5 pretty easy to being something more like lv9 or higher AND it's also a super big and costly jump, that feels bad. You sit on this bad armor, with the temptation to make it a +2 for more AC for so cheap, yet you can't because you need to save up 15000 to upgrade it. I'd love (and use this idea for future abilities) is an upgrading feature. for this it could be like. +1 to get the grapple, another +1 to make it +1/+1 and another to make it the full deal. It feels so much nicer being able to gradually improve than needing to make such a big jump at once. Yep, something like a lesser brawling +2 equivalent that gives +1 offensive stuff that can upgrade to full brawling as a +3 could be an interesting thing to add somewhere down the line. It's a fact, as you aptly indicate, that granting a +2 that stacks with everything to hit and damage, at any +equivalent (even +5), a +1 brawling armor (maybe with a pearl of power III added on so your party caster will magic vestment you back the enhancement you aren't getting) would be the best (in cost to benefit ratio) offensive accuracy/damage item you can buy at some point in your character's career, and it's an issue with the overall idea of making a +equivalent armor enhancement that gives an offensive bonus that stacks with everything else, violating the usual design for flat-cost vs +equivalent, which is roughly "if it matters what the + is on the armor or how good it is at being armor, the enhancement should be a + equivalent, and if it's totally unrelated like a skill bonus or shooting fireballs, then it should be a flat cost". it's very different when it has a limitation of "only unarmed strike and not natural attacks" because there that's only relevant for one class in the game: Monk.
A +2 for any other class if limited to only unarmed strike, that's starting from so low and remember IT IS NOT FOR NATURAL ATTACKS! So forget about any barbarian or druid builds where you get multiple powerful natural attacks, this is for 1d4, provoke every time you try to attack. You can't paint with broad strokes as if this is a +2 bonus which could apply to ANY attack, it's only for one of the worst attacks you can possibly make.
(1) It's still non-viable for anyone but monk
(2) Even if monk could use it it wouldn't make monk too powerful
Not too powerful compared to weapon-based Monk builds.
So many things are against Brawling:
-The insane recent price hike
-Bracers are effectively de-activated by mage-armor
-It specifically can only be for light armor that a monk specifically cannot lose without great penalties
The only way I see around this is:
-GM Refusing to accept price-hike revisions by GM using their Supernatural Ability of common-sense
-Using Automatic Bonus Progression rules to get Brawling in "attuned wonderbra" or whatever
-GM decree that ABP rules overrule brawling's light-armor-only limitation.
Brawlers and Iorian paladn make really good use of it. Brawler fighters can, Bloody Knuckled rowdy bloodrager, investigators, rogues, etc...
This was great as it made unarmed strikes a strong early viable option. Now it's an okay mid/late boost to unarmed strikes if you decided to go that route with a class.
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