Hey All,
I have a quick question around Demiplane creation. As per the spell when you create a demiplane it has a limited duration unless you cast the spell again or use permenancy. From Create Lesser Demiplane:
If you are within the demiplane, you can add to its area by casting the spell again. Alternatively, you may cast this spell again to reset the duration of an existing area to that of your latest casting.
You can make this spell permanent with the permanency spell, at a cost of 17,500 gp. If you have cast create lesser demiplane multiple times to enlarge the demiplane, each casting's area requires its own permanency spell.
Additionally, create greater demiplane allows you to add traits. The specific trait I am interested in is Timeless option on the Time Trait:
Alternatively, when cast within your demiplane, you may add to your demiplane (or remove from it) one of the following features (or any of the features described in create demiplane) with each casting of the spell, in which case it has an instantaneous duration.
Time: By default, time passes at the normal rate in your demiplane. By selecting this feature, you may make your plane have the erratic time, flowing time (half or double normal time), or timeless trait (see Time).
Timeless: On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a non-instantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
So my question is as follows: What is the final duration of create lesser demiplane if I take the following steps, in order
1) I cast lesser create demi-plane with its standard duration
2) I cast create greater demiplane and use that casting to apply the timeless trait. As per the rules this casting does not have a duration, but is instead instantaneous.
3) I cast lesser create demi-plane to reset the duration of the casting in step 1. Alternatively I cast lesser create demi-plane to add an additional portion to my plane.
From my reading of the rules it would seem that the duration of create lesser demiplane is now permenant. This comes from the fact that the duration of create lesser demiplane is non-instantaneous, and the timeless trait states that:
any spell cast with a non-instantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
I can see how one might consider the original lesser create demi-plane to not be affected by the timeless trait, as it was cast before that trait was placed on the plane. To account for that, I have added the possibility of instead casting lesser create demi-plane to add an additional portion to the plane (since the duration of additional castings for this purpose is tracked separately from the original casting).
No, it's not permanent.
The time doesn't pass on the demi-plane, but time passes with respect to every other plane. Time is referenced from the material plane.
So what happens? Well, as long as you stay in your demiplane you don't have any problems. No time passes on the material plane and nothing will happen. Once you leave the demiplane time passes normally, and once enough time passes for the normal duration of the spell to end, it does so normally and the plane disappears.
For an observers point of view you cast demiplane and go to your plane. Assuming you are a the minimum 17th level required to cast create greater demiplane, 17 days pass on the material plane and you are ejected. For you, an infinite amount of time passes before that happens, since while you are there no time passes on the material plane.
You don't get a free permanency, sorry.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, it's not permanent.
The time doesn't pass on the demi-plane, but time passes with respect to every other plane. Time is referenced from the material plane.
So what happens? Well, as long as you stay in your demiplane you don't have any problems. No time passes on the material plane and nothing will happen. Once you leave the demiplane time passes normally, and once enough time passes for the normal duration of the spell to end, it does so normally and the plane disappears.
For an observers point of view you cast demiplane and go to your plane. Assuming you are a the minimum 17th level required to cast create greater demiplane, 17 days pass on the material plane and you are ejected. For you, an infinite amount of time passes before that happens, since while you are there no time passes on the material plane.
You don't get a free permanency, sorry.
This brings up an interesting thought experiment. Lets say you have a timeless plane where time is diminished truly to the point of infinity (for everything such as healing, aging, hunger, etc). If you are in a space that relative to you is infinite in its duration, but has a set duration relative to the passing of time in another space... While observers will eventually see this duration come to an end, will the occupier of this infinite space ever observe the end of this duration and would it be effectively permanent as long as they occupy this space? If they exit, would they exit the space at the same time they enter it? Would the exiting person occupy the same space as the entering person?
My best guess is that relative to the occupier, the duration never ends. But relative to outside observers, it does end.
The Timeless trait is deliberately vague in its description, so the qualities of it are of course up to the player and GM. And the previous question is assuming that time appears infinite to the occupier of the timeless space rather than still flowing (albeit very slowly).
And I have to wonder, does the retroactively applied time from exiting a Timeless plane occur in terms of time passed on the material plane while the plane existed (therefore nothing would occur if exiting the plane the same moment it was entered) or in terms of the passing of imaginary time in the timeless space (meaning if the space were infinite in time, once the duration ends in the material plane the ejected occupier would age infinitely)? The description isn't quite specific in this, so I'm not entirely sure but leaning towards the latter.
Relative to the person inside the demiplane the duration never ends, that is true.
If they leave the demiplane time will advance for them again, including the hastening of the expiration of the demiplane. Do remember, that time doesn't pass on the material plane while you are in a timeless demiplane, once you leave things retroactively happen to you. Like aging and hunger. So if you stay too long leaving can kill you, unless you make preparation to prevent it.
If and when the person inside the plane leaves, the exit at the instant just after the entered since no time passes on the timeless demiplane.
Even if time is flowing very slowly versus actually stopped the answer are pretty much the same.
I one day on the material plane is equal to 10,000 years on the demiplane only fractions of seconds pass depending on the length of your stay. For instance, 1 day on the demiplane (assuming 10000 demiplane years [dpy] = 1 material plane day [mpd]) means only .~24 material plane seconds pass. Of course, the rules never actually give a ratio, so to me its simply easier to assume that no time actually flows because the results are pretty much the same and doesn't require any math.
And the retroactive time issue is about how much time (relatively speaking) has passed for the person in the demiplane. If you spend the equivalent of 10,000 years on the demiplane you will be dead if you ever leave, assuming you are not a lich. Or maybe a dragon. If it was for time passed on the material plane why even bother mentioning it since no time (or almost no time depending on how timeless your version of timeless is) passes on the material plane there would be nothing to happen to you.
|
|
Relative to the person inside the demiplane the duration never ends, that is true.
If they leave the demiplane time will advance for them again, including the hastening of the expiration of the demiplane. Do remember, that time doesn't pass on the material plane while you are in a timeless demiplane, once you leave things retroactively happen to you. Like aging and hunger. So if you stay too long leaving can kill you, unless you make preparation to prevent it.
If and when the person inside the plane leaves, the exit at the instant just after the entered since no time passes on the timeless demiplane.
Even if time is flowing very slowly versus actually stopped the answer are pretty much the same.
I one day on the material plane is equal to 10,000 years on the demiplane only fractions of seconds pass depending on the length of your stay. For instance, 1 day on the demiplane (assuming 10000 demiplane years [dpy] = 1 material plane day [mpd]) means only .~24 material plane seconds pass. Of course, the rules never actually give a ratio, so to me its simply easier to assume that no time actually flows because the results are pretty much the same and doesn't require any math.
And the retroactive time issue is about how much time (relatively speaking) has passed for the person in the demiplane. If you spend the equivalent of 10,000 years on the demiplane you will be dead if you ever leave, assuming you are not a lich. Or maybe a dragon. If it was for time passed on the material plane why even bother mentioning it since no time (or almost no time depending on how timeless your version of timeless is) passes on the material plane there would be nothing to happen to you.
What's curious to me is that it is even possible for two separate states based on relativity. For the person in the demiplane, the demiplane never ever ends... Yet outside the demiplane it does end. This creates a sort of conflict, as you have an extradimensional space that never experiences an internal end, but externally it does end.
So basically in one plane the end never occurs. And in the other an end occurs at a definite time. How is this reconciled? Or is it impossible to reconcile? The person in the demiplane would be ejected, but in what state? How could the person even be ejected if they never experience the ejection? There is never an intersection between the end state on the material plane and the end state in the demiplane. Would it simply reconcile through a separation in space-time where the demiplane exists infinitely but is disconnected from the material plane (assuming there is only one material plane)? But what if eventually the occupier does decide to leave? Is a split reality created, one where the occupier never leaves and one where he does? Are there infinite realities which reconcile every possible outcome?
Excuse the garbling of terms, I'm not a physicist.
The other issue is you cannot nest demi planes within one another, they aren't extra dimensional spaces but are essentially bubbles floating through the astral plane or ethereal plane:
"When you cast the spell, you decide whether the demiplane is within the Astral or the Ethereal Plane."
In general this is definitely a spell to work through with your DM, who might be willing to modify certain restrictions or have A conflicting view of planar interaction.
What's curious to me is that it is even possible for two separate states based on relativity. For the person in the demiplane, the demiplane never ever ends... Yet outside the demiplane it does end. This creates a sort of conflict, as you have an extradimensional space that never experiences an internal end, but externally it does end.
So basically in one plane the end never occurs. And in the other an end occurs at a definite time. How is this reconciled? Or is it impossible to reconcile? The person in the demiplane would be ejected, but in what state? How could the person even be ejected if they never experience the ejection? There is never an intersection between the end state on the material plane and the end state in the demiplane. Would it simply reconcile through a separation in space-time where the demiplane exists infinitely but is disconnected from the material plane (assuming there is only one material plane)? But what if eventually the occupier does decide to leave? Is a split reality created, one where the occupier never leaves and one where he does? Are there infinite realities which reconcile every possible outcome?
Excuse the garbling of terms, I'm not a physicist.
Dude, you're overthinking it. Magic. You can't even get a timeless demiplane until you're a 17th level wizard. You can literally make Wishes to the universe that come true.
Also, don't apply "relativity" from the physics sense. It has nothing to do with anything. When I said relative, I really meant "from the perspective of".
As for what happens when someone on the material plane cast dispel magic or something on the demiplane....that is something you'd have to resolve with your GM.
My take on it is, it simply can't happen relative to the person inside the demiplane. They have infinite time to do what they want and no time passes on the material plane relative to their time in the demiplane. No one on the material plane can act (although deities probably aren't bound by this, being gods).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, it's not permanent.
The time doesn't pass on the demi-plane, but time passes with respect to every other plane. Time is referenced from the material plane.
So what happens? Well, as long as you stay in your demi-plane you don't have any problems. No time passes on the material plane and nothing will happen. Once you leave the demi-plane time passes normally, and once enough time passes for the normal duration of the spell to end, it does so normally and the plane disappears.
For an observers point of view you cast demi-plane and go to your plane. Assuming you are a the minimum 17th level required to cast create greater demi-plane, 17 days pass on the material plane and you are ejected. For you, an infinite amount of time passes before that happens, since while you are there no time passes on the material plane.
You don't get a free permanency, sorry.
Can you point out where you're getting that from the rules, because I don't think any of that is correct.
The rules for timeless state the following:
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
Note my emphasis above. By RAW, Time on demi-plane still passes, only its effects differ. This is in contrast to flowing time or erratic time, where the rules specifically call out that time moves faster or slower. Since the rules don't state that time passes any differently, and since we always calculate time passing with respect to the material plane, the only thing the rules support is that time passes on a timeless plane at the same rate as the material plane.
The only other thing that the rules call out with respect to magic is that any spell cast on such a plane is permanent if its duration is not instantaneous. There is never any text that calls out a spell being permanent only with respect to an observer on said plane, or that when you leave the duration expires normally, all we get is that the duration is permanent.
Additionally, if a timeless plane operated how you said it does, it would be incredibly broken. If time stops on a timeless plane with respect to the material plane, I could just planeshift to my demi plane at any time, wait 24 hours (on the demi plane) and re-prepare a full day of spells whenever I wanted too. I would have unlimited spells per day for the cost of casting one spell (with the duration of said spell being 17-20 days).
Taking this even further though, it doesn't make sense for time to pass at the rate of the material plane if you leave your demi-plane. Say I am in the material plane, and another party member is in the demi-plane. If time passes normally on the demi-plane when I'm not there, then it isn't timeless for my party member, and I am almost 100% sure that there isn't anywhere in the rules where it says that a timeless demi-plane is only timeless when the creator of said demi-plane is present, and when they leave it ceases to become timeless regardless of who else is there.
Hasteroth was circling around this, but if demi-plane were to operate such that no time passes on the material plane from the perspective of someone on the demi-plane, then the inverse would be true for someone on the material plane. Specifically this means that any amount of time on the material plane would equate to an infinite amount of time on the demi-plane. This resolves the definite/indefinite end issue because the definite end of the demi-plane occurs instantly after any time passes on the material plane.
Normally it isn't good to bring in science into pathfinder discussions, but in this case you actually can consider relativity, mainly because its solution to this problem comes from following logical axioms as opposed to scientific observations. Its solution to the the question of what happens when you have something for which no time passes ( say something travelling at the speed of light) and something else not travelling at the speed of light (pretty much everything else) is the same as what I brought up above.
From a gameplay perspective this becomes pretty problematic, especially when you consider that I might occasionally like to leave things on my demi-plane, and that the effects of time occur retroactively when you leave. If I ever left anything on the demi-plane, and then returned later and took it with me, it would immediately turn to dust as an infinite amount of time retroactively occured.
The other issue is you cannot nest demi planes within one another, they aren't extra dimensional spaces but are essentially bubbles floating through the astral plane or ethereal plane:
"When you cast the spell, you decide whether the demiplane is within the Astral or the Ethereal Plane."
In general this is definitely a spell to work through with your DM, who might be willing to modify certain restrictions or have A conflicting view of planar interaction.
Sorry for any confusion. I wasn't suggesting nesting demiplanes. I was saying that the second casting would be used to extend the size of the plane. The spell rules state that a second casting can reset the duration of an earlier casting, or be used to add new space.
I included both options because I thought that someone might argue that casting the spell to reset the duration of an earlier casting wouldn't work with timeless, as resetting the duration of a 17 day spell doesn't necessarily equate to casting a non instantaneous spell with a duration of 17 days.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, it's not permanent.
The time doesn't pass on the demi-plane, but time passes with respect to every other plane. Time is referenced from the material plane.
So what happens? Well, as long as you stay in your demi-plane you don't have any problems. No time passes on the material plane and nothing will happen. Once you leave the demi-plane time passes normally, and once enough time passes for the normal duration of the spell to end, it does so normally and the plane disappears.
For an observers point of view you cast demi-plane and go to your plane. Assuming you are a the minimum 17th level required to cast create greater demi-plane, 17 days pass on the material plane and you are ejected. For you, an infinite amount of time passes before that happens, since while you are there no time passes on the material plane.
You don't get a free permanency, sorry.
Can you point out where you're getting that from the rules, because I don't think any of that is correct.
The rules for timeless state the following:
Note my emphasis above. By RAW, Time on demi-plane still passes, only its effects differ. This is in contrast to flowing time or erratic time, where the rules specifically call out that time moves faster or slower. Since the rules don't state that time passes any differently, and since we always calculate time passing with respect to the material plane, the only thing the rules support is that time...
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
While scientifically speaking I agree with you about infinite time passing after any time passing on the material plane, I believe that taking the magical aspect into consideration... a timeless demiplane could be treated as dormant (or "frozen") whenever the occupier is outside of it. Given that the actual description for Timeless is so incredibly vague... this doesn't strike me as an unreasonable way to handle it.
Also regarding the permanency, in order for permanency to work here you'd be relying on cyclical logic. As in, if the timeless quality of the demiplane makes spells permanent then a spell to make the demiplane last longer must be permanent. The problem with this is that if said permanency only lasts as long as the demiplane exists then once the amount of time has passed on the material plane (of course within the demiplane that is infinite) for the demiplane to cease existing, if level 17, then 17 days after the Demiplane was last renewed relative to the material plane, as such any permanent effects within the demiplane would end. This is because the permanency of any spells cast in a timeless plane are only permanent relative to the demiplane and not to the Material Plane. This is implicit in the timeless quality itself, as if you were to Enlarge Person on yourself in a timeless plane, then leave the plane... the Enlarge Person would no longer be permanent. It might not be explicitly spelled out in the description, but it is HEAVILY implied.
The other issue is you cannot nest demi planes within one another, they aren't extra dimensional spaces but are essentially bubbles floating through the astral plane or ethereal plane:
"When you cast the spell, you decide whether the demiplane is within the Astral or the Ethereal Plane."
In general this is definitely a spell to work through with your DM, who might be willing to modify certain restrictions or have A conflicting view of planar interaction.
Sorry for any confusion. I wasn't suggesting nesting demiplanes. I was saying that the second casting would be used to extend the size of the plane. The spell rules state that a second casting can reset the duration of an earlier casting, or be used to add new space.
I included both options because I thought that someone might argue that casting the spell to reset the duration of an earlier casting wouldn't work with timeless, as resetting the duration of a 17 day spell doesn't necessarily equate to casting a non instantaneous spell with a duration of 17 days.
You have a big wall of text that I did not read through.
But case scenario, you cast the spell to extend the size of the plane in a plane with the timeless quality. You are adding to the size of the plane, not resetting duration. The spell create demiplane "exists" in the ethereal/astral planes not on the plane you cast it from (the demiplane) therefore the time is measured to the ethereal/astral (or planes it can touch like material) not from where you cast it.
You cast the spell to reset duration? You are affecting the base plane which still has time measured relative to material plane. It will end after 17 days pass on the material plane.
As for the other issues....yes lots of problems crop up. Generally speaking, I prefer the options that are the worst for casters. Afterall, you have a plane where you get to hide from the universe and nothing can attack you until you leave. The fact that if you spend too much time there or leave something there that and come back that it could kill you or be destroyed is part of the problem of having near infinite power. Not everything works perfectly the way you want.
However, if you want the most gamist rules reason why you don't get a free permanent demiplane the answer is simple.
The rules list a specific cost for permanency of demiplanes. Anything that tries to avoid paying the cost for it is a clear violation of the intention of the rules. So any conclusion you would reach that results in a free permanent demiplane is obviously an incorrect interpretation/understanding of the rules.
RAW doesn't matter in my opinion.
Rules are interpreted when you read them. If you know the developers intent (which to me is made obvious by there being a price for permanent demiplanes) then any conclusion you arrive at the goes against this intention isn't a correct conclusion, even if it supported by the most literal interpretation of the rules.
In fact, there are many threads about reading the rules too literally and how that ends with insane outcomes that people generally agree shouldn't happen.
The intent matters far more than the letter.
And again, the more important thing is that you can't nest the planes.
When you cast create dmeiplane on the demiplane its simply an extension of the plane within the ethereal plane. Which means the time is respective to the ethereal plane, not the demiplane which the spell was cast on because the spell "exist" on the ethereal plane not within the demiplane.
Also, it's not particularly fruitful to discuss how 9th level spells are broken as there is little expectation to fix things available only to 3/20ths of game, which represent probably only 10% or less of games actually played ever reaching that level. In general, Paizo is content to let GMs resolve the issues caused by such high level mechanics. Which is fair to me since I'd rather see problems resolved that affect a large number of players (stuff at levels 1-13) over higher level things that affect a substantially smaller number of players. Given infinite time and resources I would love Paizo to address all problems, but it simply isn't a realistic expectation.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
RAW doesn't matter in my opinion.
Well then you'd probably be better off answering questions in the general discussion or advice forums then. People can interpret rules 100 different ways, but usually (from what I've seen) when you get questions in the rules forum, people are looking for RAW answers that they can then use to come to their own conclusions.
If that's not the case then I apologize for not being clearer in my question. I am looking for RAW answers.
When you cast create dmeiplane on the demiplane its simply an extension of the plane within the ethereal plane. Which means the time is respective to the ethereal plane, not the demiplane which the spell was cast on because the spell "exist" on the ethereal plane not within the demiplane.
According to the rules time on a plane is always respective to the material plane, but I get where you're coming from.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you're saying that because the effect of the initial casting is floating around in the etherial or astral plane, the timeless property doesn't affect spells that target the plane itself?
I get that, and I would agree if the spell said that when it was cast to extend a plane, it targeted the plane itself, but it doesn't say that.
I would also agree with you if I was casting the spell from the ethereal or astral planes, but according to the spell text I have to be within the demiplane to extend it.
I think one could just as easily say that even though the demiplane itself is floating around in the astral or ethereal plane, the effect (result of the spell) that's making it bigger or altering it is coming from within the demiplane. The rules support for this being that you are required by the spell to be within the plane to extend it (or to add features), and that the only time anything is said to be occurring in the astral or ethereal plane is when the demiplane is initially created. Otherwise why would being within the demiplane be a requirement? I would think, considering the space requirements the Paizo authors deal with, that if the caster's location wasn't relevant to the effect they could have cut that whole line.
Also, it's not particularly fruitful to discuss how 9th level spells are broken as there is little expectation to fix things available only to 3/20ths of game, which represent probably only 10% or less of games actually played ever reaching that level.
Just because there isn't likely going to be a rules fix doesn't mean that it isn't fruitful or interesting to talk about. Lots of good things that weren't likely to happen still happened because someone gave it a shot, and some people just enjoy these kinds of discussions for their own sake.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, time doesn't actually freeze when you're on your own personal demiplane (that is, one specifically created by the create demiplane spells).
Although time stop might work with permanent duration I suppose (highly debatable, since it's "apparent" time).