So I recently stumbled onto the spell Death Knell Aura, which says it functions exactly like Vanilla Death Knell, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around what it's supposed to do.
I know multiple castings of Vanilla Death Knell won't stack, but this is a persistent aura that one has around them, that gives the benefits of a death knell spell every time a creature dies within its radius. It seems intentional that the temporary (untyped) bonus to hit points and Caster Level (but not the enhancement bonus to STR) would stack. Am I reading this wrong?
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Fair enough, but just to be absolutely clear: Does this mean that you get an untyped +1 to CL that stacks for every creature that dies within the radius and duration of the spell?
Looking more at it, these bonuses don't overlap, they stack. The only reason Vanilla Death Knell doesn't stack with itself is because you have two or more different castings of the same spell, whereas this spell is just one.
Also, as an interesting point, Greater Death Knell Aura specifically states that it functions like DKA. DKA doesn't have any such wording with regards to Vanilla DK.
Death Knell Aura
School necromancy [death, evil]; Level cleric 4, inquisitor 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range 20 ft.
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You gain a shimmering gray aura that feeds on the souls of creatures who die within it. The aura sheds light as a candle. If a creature at –1 or fewer hit points is within the aura at the start of its turn, it must save or die, granting you the benefits of death knell.
Emphasis Mine.
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Fair enough, but just to be absolutely clear: Does this mean that you get an untyped +1 to CL that stacks for every creature that dies within the radius and duration of the spell?The source is always the same spell. Same source never stack, so no.Nope. OP's right. The "source" isn't the spell, but the creatures that die within its area of effect, which would be different sources.
By your logic, casting magic vestment shouldn't give you any bonus bigger than +1, since it's the "same" spell. Plus, I find it really hard to believe that for a 2-level bump in cost, the only upgrade would be a POSSIBLE 1d8 temporary hp that DON'T STACK.
This is one spell, not multiple castings of the same spell. Every effect that comes from the "benefits of death knell" is not the casting of death knell itself, and is not subject to the stacking rules, with the exception of the enhancement bonus to str.
The source is the spell. It trigger every time someone dies, but what give you the bonus is the spell.
Alright, I need some more thoughts on this. I really just don't think that's right, Diego.
I would agree the effects stack. The only one that wouldnt is the strength bonus as it specifically states that its an ENHANCEMENT BONUS.
The others are effectively untyped bonuses and so would stack.
Otherwise I cant really see the point of the spell
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I would agree the effects stack. The only one that wouldnt is the strength bonus as it specifically states that its an ENHANCEMENT BONUS.
The others are effectively untyped bonuses and so would stack.
Otherwise I cant really see the point of the spell
Enemies at -1 or less hp within the aura save not to die every round.
It is a death effect so Breath of Life or Raise dead don't work.It require a will save, a save that is low for a good percentage of the meele characters.
+1 caster level is a great buff for a caster.
But they can get pretty much all of that from Vanilla DK. If the spell functioned the way you think it does, then they're wasting a fourth-level slot on a second-level spell all for a little more range and a few more targets (that provide no bonuses). If this was the case, then there would be no reason for this spell to exist.
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But they can get pretty much all of that from Vanilla DK. If the spell functioned the way you think it does, then they're wasting a fourth-level slot on a second-level spell all for a little more range and a few more targets (that provide no bonuses). If this was the case, then there would be no reason for this spell to exist.
And several round duration instead of a single touch attack where a successful save mean you do nothing.
There is a big difference in casting a spell during the preparation for a battle and having it last several rounds, where every round require a save if the conditions are meet, against casting it as a standard action during the battle.
20' radius against touch too.
If you don't see how all that is worth a 2 level difference I don't know what to say.
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If this was the case, then there would be no reason for this spell to exist.When the spell was published (2011), temporary HP did stack, that was before the September 2013 FAQ http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r43
Temporary hit point from the same source never stacked.
Temporary Hit Points: Do temporary hit point from the same source stack?No. Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.
This prevents a creature with energy drain (which grants the creature 5 temporary hit points when used) from draining an entire village of 100 people in order to gain 500 temporary hit points before the PCs arrive to fight it.
Temporary hit points from different sources (such as an aid spell, a use of energy drain, and a vampiric touch spell) still stack with each other.
WombattheDaniel, as you can see stacking is treated in a very restrictive way. In the example situation the undead would be using different attacks actions against different creatures and the effect still don't stack.
With Death Knell Aura you are using the same spell against different creatures, so the same principle applies.
Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. My argument has already been presented. I, and several others, disagree with you. DKA expressly does not function like DK, and its effects would stack. If you wouldn't mind FAQ'ing this post I would appreciate it.
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Diego is correct. Further, if it stacked, it would be heinously broken.
Thank you, Fentomy, but I think that everything that should be said has been said. No need to start a flame war. That was never the intention of this post.
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Diego is correct. Further, if it stacked, it would be heinously broken.Whether or not it is broken is irrelevant. We all know that no sane GM would allow something like this but that doesn't change the fact that it is what it is.
I'm just saying that not only does it go against the rules (because the same effect from the same spell does not stack unless it explicitly says so), but bending the rules in this case doesn't produce good results (as it would be easy to break this if it did), so there's not even a good reason to go against the rules in this case.
But yes, the same effects simply do not stack. This applies for temporary hit points, and for untyped bonuses gained from the same spell. That's just magic 101.
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I'd argue it grants the effects of Death Knell for each creature that dies due to a failed save. And would stack.
Each creature dying grants the effect of death knell, thus it's a seperate instance of gaining the effect for each death.
But the same effect in succession does not stack. That's basic magic. It doesn't matter how many instances of death knell are active, only the greatest stacks. In the same way, whenever the spell grants the benefits of death knell, since it doesn't say that it stacks, it doesn't because it's repeatedly granting the same non-stacking benefits.
Seriously, this is not complicated. We've known the answer to this for like three editions now. It's not changed.
I don't see how the spell would stack with itself any more than multiple castings of Death Kneel would stack. It's just basically an automatically cast, automatically hitting Death Kneel that can affect a large number of targets.
Fair enough, but just to be absolutely clear: Does this mean that you get an untyped +1 to CL that stacks for every creature that dies within the radius and duration of the spell?The source is always the same spell. Same source never stack, so no.Nope. OP's right. The "source" isn't the spell, but the creatures that die within its area of effect, which would be different sources.
By your logic, casting magic vestment shouldn't give you any bonus bigger than +1, since it's the "same" spell. Plus, I find it really hard to believe that for a 2-level bump in cost, the only upgrade would be a POSSIBLE 1d8 temporary hp that DON'T STACK.
This is one spell, not multiple castings of the same spell. Every effect that comes from the "benefits of death knell" is not the casting of death knell itself, and is not subject to the stacking rules, with the exception of the enhancement bonus to str.
No, the logic is that you gain the benefits of Magical Vestiment only once no matter how many times it's cast.
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Fentomy, it's a spell with a duration. Nothing that is dying is giving you anything, it's a spell that while active, grants you certain benefits whenever a certain thing happens. The spell is factually the source.
And the main difference between this and dodge bonuses and Tetori monks is those are defined exceptions to the normal rules. There is no exception here. Dodge bonuses are noted as stacking, Tetori monks are noted as being able to ignore freedom of movement.
One of these things is not like the other.
Multiple castings of death knell would not stack, same as multiple castings of any other spell. The spell is the same source, even if it is different castings. Aura just works as multiple castings of the same spell.
No stacking.
Death Knell Aura lasts 1 Round per Level. So a 9th level caster woul have the benefits of Vanilla Death Knell for less than a minute. As apposed to the 10 minute per HD of the dead creature. If the benefit stack, the langth of time to gather and use is small.
Death Knell Aura lasts 1 Round per Level. So a 9th level caster woul have the benefits of Vanilla Death Knell for less than a minute. As apposed to the 10 minute per HD of the dead creature. If the benefit stack, the langth of time to gather and use is small.
It's still easily long enough to fireball a bag of rats, or (less cheesily) blow away a bunch of mooks in easy encounters and stroll into the final boss room as a level 8 wizard casting CL25 spells
As has been said multiple times, this is not many different castings of the same spell. It is one casting of one spell that says that every time someone dies within the area/duration of the spell, the caster gets the benefits of DK. It's one spell giving the benefits multiple times, which is why it is my belief that the intent of the spell is that they should stack.
Otherwise, why have the spell?
your belief has no relevance to the rules on stacking. And if multiple castings count as the same source, one casting with multiple triggers is definitely going to be same source.
Whether you like it or not these effects will not stack, not without some clause allowing them to stack.