Can anyone point me in the direction of work that has been done with the goal of reducing 3.5/Mathfinder to a base mathematical language? My good friend and I are trying to take the Pathfinder core, base, and hybrid classes (with few exceptions, most notably the vigilante -- how unbelievable is that class, right??!) and convert them to a "job" system similar to those found in the Ogre Battle and Final Fantasy systems. That is a "midrange" objective, but will eventually lead to the "ultimate" of a system rooted in the familiar territory of d20 but fully adaptable to a player's desired abilities.
A lofty and crazed goal, yes, I know. But that's the direction we're heading with this. Feel free to dismiss, decry, lambast, and derogate as you will, but do it somewhere else, please. I would love to read input from serious contributors who: 1) have insights to share based upon their experience in such endeavors, 2) know where someone has been willing to share the same, or 3) are willing to brainstorm here.
Now here is the catch (like it's isn't tricky enough already?): I am terrible at advanced mathematics. "On the eighth day, Satan said: Let's put the alphabet in math." I will circle x on test papers -- I found it! I can calculate DPR if I have the equation in front of me, and I've used Pythagorean theorem a time or two, but as soon as plotted lines start curving you may as well leave me in Flatland. Geometry I can kinda handle, algebra is the Devil's handiwork, and calculus clawed its way up from beyond the lowest toilet in the Abyss.
Anyone feel like LARPing Virgil to my Dante?
I have even less math knowledge than you, though this is from a deteriorating effect of losing my high school knowledge. (Angles? What are those?)
But I can say that some classes will be quite easy to convert in this way (rogues, fighters, wizards, clerics), while others (cavaliers, hunters) have class features that are ALL tied to one specific thing almost, making breaking them up quite a challenge. While I can't be of much help, I can offer some base advice:
If *I* were going to do this, I'd start by looking at the abilities of the Variant Multiclass System in the Unchained book or on the PRD. It attempted to parcel out various class features as "feats" and may be a good theoretical starting point for you. Good luck!
I'm not sure if I follow what you're asking for. Your post is all over the place.
Are you asking for giving estimates of the power level of various class features?
>>> Ages --
Thanks for the VMC tip -- a good lens I hadn't considered.
>>> Cyrad --
Essentially: a mathematical analysis of the value of each ability in the game, weighted by its relation to specific ability score(s).
So, yes -- well-reasoned assignment of relative values across the various class abilities/features.
>>> christos --
Thanks for the tip! I will explore that as soon as I can -- workplace ain't the best.
Something like generic classes form 3.5 unearthed arcana?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm
Basically make a class with bonus feats but no main abilities then allow them to take feats to get class features. You could use the variant multiclass feats from unchained to simulate pathfinder abilities.
I would also suggest spheres of power as it is basically a feat based magic system and would help enhance customizability.
I'm very sympathetic to the OP's project, as I'd once started various abortive early-draft attempts to do the same thing . Unfortunately, the math underlying 3.5/PF, in a number of places, simply doesn't work.
1. The spread in total bonuses, vs. the size of the d20 RNG, means that you often see cases where a moderately competent person has no chance of succeeding at a task which is trivially easy (auto-success) for a specialist.
2. "Uses per day" is vastly overestimated as a balancing factor, leading to some classes with *I WIN* buttons and other classes with no ability to do a lot of things at all.
3. Situational feats and minor combat bonuses are highly over-valued.
4. The game assumes that everyone follows a very rigid railroad and thinks tactically rather than strategically, meaning that large-scale abilities that directly change the narrative are "priced" as being absurdly less powerful than they actually are.
5. (etc.)
>>> Bardarok --
I haven't heard of spheres of power. Where should I go digging?
>>> Atarlost --
You're going to need to need to do value relative to other values as well.
Exactly. Lots of "knobs" to adjust for in this.
>>> Kirth --
I've been involved in the 3.0/3.5/PF world for about 15 years, and I've run into those mathematically implausible points before -- quite the headache, indeed.
Regarding the "uses per day" observation -- Are you referring solely to class features (fervor, lay on hands, smite, etc.), or spells, as well?
The situational feats were ridiculously prevalent in 3.0 and 3.5. And I loved the far-reaching customization available there, despite those things. I would love to hear more of your thoughts and concrete examples, chief.
>>> Bardarok --
The generic classes from UA are . . . close-ish . . . to the objective. But even those classes feel too "railroad-y". Nevermind their limitations as printed. They are a lens, surely, but I do not find them a solution.
Regarding the "uses per day" observation -- Are you referring solely to class features (fervor, lay on hands, smite, etc.), or spells, as well?
Most especially spells, but class features to an extent as well.
I would love to hear more of your thoughts and concrete examples, chief.
The biggest problem I ran into was that, for a lot of the classless systems I enjoyed the most (e.g., Victory Games' James Bond 007), buying skills becomes the predominant building block of character advancement. That doesn't work at all in 3.5, which was written from the ground up as a system in which almost all skills are essentially totally obsolete by 5th level.
>>> Bardarok --
The generic classes from UA are . . . close-ish . . . to the objective. But even those classes feel too "railroad-y". Nevermind their limitations as printed. They are a lens, surely, but I do not find them a solution.
Spheres of Power is a third party suplement/magic system replacement.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr/discuss?Spheres-of-Power
I like it a lot but I'm not entirely sure it's what you are looking for, still worth checking out the free preview pdf.
I toyed with creating a class creation system that worked similar to Shadowrun 5th Edition's priority system.
>>> Cyrad --Essentially: a mathematical analysis of the value of each ability in the game, weighted by its relation to specific ability score(s).
So, yes -- well-reasoned assignment of relative values across the various class abilities/features.
While definitely a lofty goal, it's not quite possible to assess all class features numerically
1) The game makes heavy use of incomparables, a game design term meaning content that doesn't have clear numerical value. Comparing many class features is like comparing apples to oranges.
2) An ability's value depends heavily on its context. A class is greater than the some of its parts. What might be balanced on one class might be broken or overpowered on another.
3) Assessing all abilities of all types would be rather impractical and not precise. Because of this and the above two reasons, it's better to assess the value of two similar abilities on a case by case basis than try to do a blanket assessment across all abilities of all types.
4) Even if you overcome the hurdles of point #3, an assessment honestly wouldn't be that useful due to points #1 and #2. At least not useful enough to make the effort worth it. It wouldn't tell you what should be the base line, power ceiling, or power floor. It would also depend heavily on allowed content and the campaign.
Game design is hard.
I've looked at doing a classless buy system for a long time (since 2e D&D actually), and there's one main thing I've figured out: it's soooo much easier to start from the other end of the game math.
I've tried valuing class abilities from games against each other, and even valued across and against basic character elements like hitpoints, skills and spell slots. What the others are saying is true: "The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts" and "incomparables". There's so many checks and balances that make a class almost a spider's web of interdependence and cohesiveness, rather than slapping a bunch of abilities together.
Not to say that this cannot be done: a good system of prerequisites can curtail a lot of wonkiness, although that may be getting into your "railroad-y" feeling.
Recently, I've considered doing something like a Mutants and Masterminds version of Pathfinder. Basically using the buy system of one game, to create the feel and concept of the other.
If I were to actually try my hand at this again, I'd use Pathfinder as inspiration, but start coming up with abilities from scratch that try to capture the gameplay feel and concepts from the game's classes.
There's two main things I'd follow when making stuff:
1. I'd keep an eye on the Monster Creation "by CR" table (found here).
Basically, I'd want to make sure anything that a person can specialize in will do well against those stats, and anything they'd be mediocre in will have trouble (but hopefully not so much to make impossible) against those stats.
If you keep an eye on this table whenever numbers come up, then you will be making a character system that can handle the monsters that will be thrown at it.
2. I'd come up with a clear ladder of power for character advancement.
By this, I mean what can a character reasonably do at a given level. When will "faster travel" be common, when does "multiple target damage" kick in normally, when can "mind reading or divinations" kick in.
Basically, the way I look at the 20 level spread is:
Levels 1 to 7 is down to earth, gritty "realistic" heroes. What "peak normalcy" can perform, facing things we'd see today (an army of people, normal real-world environments, lions and tigers and bears oh my!).
Levels 8 to 15 is supernatural heroes of mythical adventure, dealing with medusa, dinosaurs, and giants.
Levels 16 to 20 is mythical heroes on a proportion to challenge the gods themselves, approaching a divine level of power.
You can come up with your own scale, but knowing when teleportation and instant kill effects should kick in is a good way to balance where you want abilities to show up.
Use these as guides to keep yourself on track, instead of relying on a strict mathematical equation, so to speak.
Can anyone point me in the direction of work that has been done with the goal of reducing 3.5/Mathfinder to a base mathematical language? My good friend and I are trying to take the Pathfinder core, base, and hybrid classes (with few exceptions, most notably the vigilante -- how unbelievable is that class, right??!) and convert them to a "job" system similar to those found in the Ogre Battle and Final Fantasy systems. That is a "midrange" objective, but will eventually lead to the "ultimate" of a system rooted in the familiar territory of d20 but fully adaptable to a player's desired abilities.
A lofty and crazed goal, yes, I know. But that's the direction we're heading with this. Feel free to dismiss, decry, lambast, and derogate as you will, but do it somewhere else, please. I would love to read input from serious contributors who: 1) have insights to share based upon their experience in such endeavors, 2) know where someone has been willing to share the same, or 3) are willing to brainstorm here.
Now here is the catch (like it's isn't tricky enough already?): I am terrible at advanced mathematics. "On the eighth day, Satan said: Let's put the alphabet in math." I will circle x on test papers -- I found it! I can calculate DPR if I have the equation in front of me, and I've used Pythagorean theorem a time or two, but as soon as plotted lines start curving you may as well leave me in Flatland. Geometry I can kinda handle, algebra is the Devil's handiwork, and calculus clawed its way up from beyond the lowest toilet in the Abyss.
Anyone feel like LARPing Virgil to my Dante?
Having not yet read the other posts (will do so after posting this), what you are asking for sounds something like Dreamscarred Press's 3.5 PDF Complete Control. Not sure about pathfinder though.
Interestingly in that same product line they had Complete Gear and Complete Races (think of the advanced race guide's race builder but back in 3.5).
Thanks for the input, folks!
Especially rewarding has been the Spheres of Power angle -- double the thanks for that one! Absolutely love it!
I have yet to really dig into the Custom Class Builder christos gurd linked, but that will be forthcoming in the next week, maybe two (getting ready for my brother's wedding . . . . Shoo, boy!).
On the other hand --
Since so many of you have done the grindy, hands-on work to try to make this happen before, I understand if you have reservations about full disclosure. I *am* asking for full disclosure, but I'm not going to browbeat anyone about it. So when I ask for something concrete, I know there's a grab bag of abilities/content out there which could be addressed in a light, case-by-case approach.
For instance -- resist nature's lure. I think it's one of the most wasted abilities in the game system; that is simply a byproduct of having encountered fey creatures in-game so infrequently. Obviously, context determines usage and value. If, on the other hand, games in which I participated heavily involved the goings-on of the (Un)Seelie Courts, my opinion would be different.
What factors *are* mathematically relevant to the effort to evaluate resist nature's lure?
1) Available to one class
2) Gained at 4th level
3) Provides a numerical bonus to saves, untyped
4) Provides that bonus vs supernatural and SLAs
5) Provides that bonus vs a specific creature type
6) Provides that bonus vs plant magic
7) Relevant to Constitution/Fortitude
8) Relevant to Dexterity/Reflex
9) Relevant to Wisdom/Will
7-9b) Relevant to at least one primary ability score of the specific class
10ff) Fill in my blanks
For comparison purposes, what is a similar ability from another class? The first one that springs to mind is well-versed, from the bard.
1) Available to one class
2) Gained at 2nd level
3) Numerical bonus to saves, untyped (bonus typing is likely its own factor . . . . Derp.)
4) Effective against bardic performance
5) Effective against sonic effects
6) Effective against language-dependent effects
7-9) Tied to the save types and their relevant ability scores
10) Relevant to secondary ability scores of the specific class
11ff) Etc.
Well-versed is, in my opinion, a far stronger ability than resist nature's lure. It is effective against the second-strongest energy type, a broad swath of SoD/S effects from *any* source creature, and opposing bards ("Dueling Banjos"! Hurray!). There are even more factors that have bearing upon evaluating the two abilities (available spell levels, lists, and so on), but I don't know how to explicate/identify all of them. Yet.
Game design is hard.
That's exactly right. Hence the original post.