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I've seen several threads about what Barbarians can do while raging on this board, but have a few questions about their limitations.
It seems that the general consensus is that Barbarians, while raging, can use Supernatural Abilities. My questions involve those specifics.
1) Can a raging Universalist use Hand of the Apprentice while raging?
2) Can a Raging Barbarian use Arcane Strike?
Were I DMing, I would certainly allow these, but I'm curious as to how others feel about it. Personally, I'm of the mindset that if it isn't specifically written that you can't do it, and it fits into the category of "Make the other person dead" then feel free. But I'm not DMing and I'm curious as to how others would handle this character.
Since neither one is on the list of limitations to raging, I would allow it.
yes and yes
I would argue "No" to both, since a raging barbarian can't use "any ability that requires patience or concentration." I would rule that using arcane power requires some focus and thought outside of "rawr, smash!"
A barbarian i would say no, but for a bloodrager i would say yes.
But honestly, its not that much of a issue gameplaywise so i would take it by situation.
If you use magehand to hit that dude in the face or similar violent motions i would be all in for it, but if you try to something more finesse.... maybe?
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I would argue "No" to both, since a raging barbarian can't use "any ability that requires patience or concentration." I would rule that using arcane power requires some focus and thought outside of "rawr, smash!"
While I can see your point, I offer some counter-points.
Take for example "Blooded Arcane Strike"
While you are bloodraging, you don't need to spend a swift action to use your Arcane Strike
To me, this feat reads that Arcane Strike can still be used while Bloodraging, an ability which has the same limitations to spellcasting placed on it as vanilla rage.
Second, I feel that these two in particular feel less in the vein of focus, patience and concentration and more in the vein of a violent outburst of raw arcane energy.
Lets also take into consideration that, while a majority of spellcasters are focusing their abilities, there are casters out there, the wild mage for example, who don't focus or concentrate, they simply exert power until something happens.
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Supernatural abilities tend to be things that you instinctively know how to do just as much as jumping or hitting something. You don't have to do any incantations or special movements or focus to use Supernatural abilities. That's why they tend to not provoke attacks of opportunity. You just simply do them. So I would say that yes, you can use them while raging.
While I can see your point, I offer some counter-points.
Take for example "Blooded Arcane Strike"
While you are bloodraging, you don't need to spend a swift action to use your Arcane StrikeTo me, this feat reads that Arcane Strike can still be used while Bloodraging, an ability which has the same limitations to spellcasting placed on it as vanilla rage.
Except Bloodrage doesn't have the same limitations on spell casting at all; a Bloodrager can cast spells while bloodraging, and can concentrate and maintain those spells. Literally, the one thing that makes Bloodrage different from Rage is the ability to cast spells while raging once the Bloodrager can learn class spells.
Second, I feel that these two in particular feel less in the vein of focus, patience and concentration and more in the vein of a violent outburst of raw arcane energy.
You might be able to make a reasonable argument for Arcane Strike, but definitely not at all for Hand of the Apprentice. Using your mind (hence the Intelligence to hit) to maneuver your weapon to attack and return to your hand definitely requires concentration.
Even with Arcane Strike:
As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power.
The "fraction of your power" indicates concentrating on releasing a small amount, not a flood of energy. That would require some about of concentration. If you can't Disable Device while Raging, then I'd rule that you can't Arcane Strike while Raging. Bloodraging is a different ability designed to use with arcane abilities.
Lets also take into consideration that, while a majority of spellcasters are focusing their abilities, there are casters out there, the wild mage for example, who don't focus or concentrate, they simply exert power until something happens.
I'm not familiar with the Wild Mage, but I'd assume that if they're trying to use their power, then like a Cleric channeling energy, they'd have to focus. And if they're trying not to kill themselves, they'd have to concentrate, lest their power overwhelms them.
TL;DR-
Maybe for Arcane Strike. Absolutely not for Hand of the Apprentice because of its Intelligence-based check.
You can't use spells, concentration, or skills.
Making int checks is completely allowed as it's not explicitly disallowed.
If you can think of an Intelligence check that doesn't require or imply concentration (such as using your mind to attack with your weapon), I'd agree. Rage doesn't say "concentration check", only "concentration." That implies the common definition of "concentration" which just means taking a moment to think about something.
The rules implicitly disallow it.
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Concentration is anything that could require a concentration check. Maybe something that lasts multiple rounds. Activating a SU ability, even an int based one, doesn't require concentration. You're still able to think and reason. You just don't have patience.
While raging you can:
Maintain a style stance
Activate a SU ability
Use sneak attack and other precision based abilities
Climb a mountain
Tread water
Move into flanking
Tell friend from foe
Draw and drink a potion
Withdraw from combat
Use a bow and arrow
Then, by your reasoning, the text means anything that requires a "patience check," lol.
Anyway, the idea behind Rage is that you can't think and reason, hence why you can balance and tumble (Acrobatics), but you can't Stealth or Sleight of Hand while raging. It's also purpose of the Will bonus; it's a mechanical representation of your single-mindedness.
Definitely can't imagine a raging barbarian carefully and deliberately targeting an enemy's vitals with precision, either, lol.
TL;DR-
Maybe for Arcane Strike. Absolutely not for Hand of the Apprentice because of its Intelligence-based check.
I presume in your games Barbarians can't make ranged attacks, or attempt Reflex saves, or use Weapon Finesse while raging, since those rolls are Dex-based?
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I presume in your games Barbarians can't make ranged attacks, or attempt Reflex saves, or use Weapon Finesse while raging, since those rolls are Dex-based?TL;DR-
Maybe for Arcane Strike. Absolutely not for Hand of the Apprentice because of its Intelligence-based check.
What about rolling CON to stabilize if you have Raging Vitality?
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I presume in your games Barbarians can't make ranged attacks, or attempt Reflex saves, or use Weapon Finesse while raging, since those rolls are Dex-based?
Fun fact: My DM is of the same train of thought that Barbarians can't make ranged attacks.
Regardless; though your attack roll uses your intelligence modifier, it isn't a skill check, and its still treated in every other way as a ranged attack roll with a thrown weapon.
You can think and reason perfectly fine while raging, thank you very much. Case in point, you can voluntarily end your rage early.
You're just very angry and not very subtle.
Heck, you can do all of the above and also ready actions while raging to my knowledge.
I would say that being able to calm down isn't that same as being able to reason while angry. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that being able to end your rage early just means you recognize that you can't focus and I need stop raging to in order to focus.
Also, readying an action obvious requires patience, and you can't make patience checks while raging, lol.
I presume in your games Barbarians can't make ranged attacks, or attempt Reflex saves, or use Weapon Finesse while raging, since those rolls are Dex-based?
Not sure why you'd presume that, since I never mentioned Dexterity-based rolls? However, I might home-rule that a raging Barbarian either can't use crossbows/firearms while raging, or at least would take a penalty.
You guys are reading way too much into the penalties for rage. The barbarian simply can't use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) and can't use any ability that requires patience or concentration.
Since these aren't skills we can completely ignore that part. Neither once requires any patience or concentration. If they did, I think it would be obvious.
The only argument I can see against arcane strike is that if you are raging, then you can't cast spells which means that you may no longer qualify for the feat. You have to be able to concentrate to cast spells per Casting Spells, Concentration. It would be the same as if your barbarian has a 13 Dexterity and Dodge, but loses access to the Dodge feat when raging because his Dexterity is now 11. (Feats, Prerequisites: A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.)
Hand of the apprentice is simply a ranged attack that has some limitations and uses your intelligence score, but it isn't a skill.
Roughly 97.5% of the time if you ask "can you ________ while raging?" The answer is yes. These two questions are not in the other 2.5%. Not skills, no concentration, no patience. Good to rage.
By the way, the Eldricht heritage only grant you the powers and not the arcana correct?
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I would say that being able to calm down isn't that same as being able to reason while angry.Wut.
In fact, I'd go as far as to say that being able to end your rage early just means you recognize that you can't focus and I need stop raging to in order to focus.
Soooo, you mean like, I dunno, using your ability to reason and think?
By the way, the Eldricht heritage only grant you the powers and not the arcana correct?Correct!
... though I think you might be in the wrong thread :3
Haha, yeah i know i kinda dabbled in here and didnt see the point of a entire thread to answer that question since it was somewhat mentioned earlier.
But as for the topic at hand it seems like some think the rage ability works like the old versions of D&D when a rage was... err... "mindless" and far more dangerous for the players around.
For what i know of the Pathfinder version of rage it disables your spellcasting unless you are a bloodrager or have the bloodrage feat, and it disables some of your skills. Not something like you start attacking your allies or need to charge the closest enemy and that kind of thing, if anything its rather controlled for a "rage".
So by "RAW" you are allowed quite a bit while in this state despite the name and fluff of it.
I would say that being able to calm down isn't that same as being able to reason while angry.Wut.In fact, I'd go as far as to say that being able to end your rage early just means you recognize that you can't focus and I need stop raging to in order to focus.Soooo, you mean like, I dunno, using your ability to reason and think?
Nope, like using your intuition to feel that you're out of control (Wisdom). You want to do something, but you can't figure out what that is because your thoughts are scattered, so you take a minute to collect yourself and think.