Skeletal Champion CR doesn't seem right.

[Olaf the Holy]

Soo... I have some vague ideas for a SC human antipaladin 10.

Now, the template says that, after I convert my antipaladin, I should figure out the CR of a normal skeleton of its hd, and add 1.

Meaning I get a CR 7 creature out of the deal. It seems backed up by all the example NPCs I've been able to find, but it also seems more than a little ridiculous. Now, I'm all for abusing the CR system to add more challenge than the CR would suggest, but this seems more a case of bad writing than anything.

Should I disregard the rules and just call it a CR +1 template?

And doesn't it seem under-cr'd, anyway?

[Valantrix1]

You are not calculating the CR right. From what I can tell, your skeletal champion antipaladin should be a CR 10 not 7.

[Justin Sluder]

Add the class CR increase after calculating the CR of the skeletal champion's CR from racial Hit Dice. So, a human skeletal champion antipaladin 10 should have a CR of 11 (CR 1 for base skeletal champion + 10 for ten levels of anitpaladin).

[Valantrix1]

Justin Sluder wrote:

Add the class CR increase after calculating the CR of the skeletal champion's CR from racial Hit Dice. So, a human skeletal champion antipaladin 10 should have a CR of 11 (CR 1 for base skeletal champion + 10 for ten levels of anitpaladin).

Yeah, this. I calculated it backwards.

[Rysky]

Justin Sluder wrote:

Add the class CR increase after calculating the CR of the skeletal champion's CR from racial Hit Dice. So, a human skeletal champion antipaladin 10 should have a CR of 11 (CR 1 for base skeletal champion + 10 for ten levels of anitpaladin).

Actually to my knowledge when calculating CR for something solely out of Character levels and not natural HD it's HD -1, so a level 10 Human Antipaladin would be CR 9, Skeletal Champion bumping that up to CR 10.

[thewastedwalrus]

Rysky wrote:

Justin Sluder wrote:

Add the class CR increase after calculating the CR of the skeletal champion's CR from racial Hit Dice. So, a human skeletal champion antipaladin 10 should have a CR of 11 (CR 1 for base skeletal champion + 10 for ten levels of anitpaladin).

Actually to my knowledge when calculating CR for something solely out of Character levels and not natural HD it's HD -1, so a level 10 Human Antipaladin would be CR 9, Skeletal Champion bumping that up to CR 10.

A human skeletal champion has 2 racial hit dice.

[Rysky]

thewastedwalrus wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Justin Sluder wrote:

Add the class CR increase after calculating the CR of the skeletal champion's CR from racial Hit Dice. So, a human skeletal champion antipaladin 10 should have a CR of 11 (CR 1 for base skeletal champion + 10 for ten levels of anitpaladin).

Actually to my knowledge when calculating CR for something solely out of Character levels and not natural HD it's HD -1, so a level 10 Human Antipaladin would be CR 9, Skeletal Champion bumping that up to CR 10.

A human skeletal champion has 2 racial hit dice.

Ah, they do. But my post was more on the CR = Levels -1

[MageHunter]

Here's it put simple. The CR of a skeletal champion for the most part is equal the class level of the NPC. NPC's get -1 CR, and SC's get +1 CR; ergo, they balance out.

[Java Man]

The way I think this works, and I will admit that I am not at all certain this is RAW, We start with a human with 0 racial HD, add 2 for a 2HD skeleton champion of CR 1, we now apply the monster advancement rules to add class levels. As the classes we are adding match the skeletons role we will be adding the number of class levels to the base cr of 1 for the final cr.

[Ascalaphus]

Java Man wrote:

The way I think this works, and I will admit that I am not at all certain this is RAW, We start with a human with 0 racial HD, add 2 for a 2HD skeleton champion of CR 1, we now apply the monster advancement rules to add class levels. As the classes we are adding match the skeletons role we will be adding the number of class levels to the base cr of 1 for the final cr.

That's actually precisely how it works by RAW.

[Justin Sluder]

Calm down.

Also, FAQ'd the first post and moving along.

[Java Man]

Tell you what, just so we are all on the same page, I propose we all do two things befor posting anymore, obviously this is voluntary, but it will likely make this discussion go better.

1. Go and actually read the book on skeleton and skeleton champion creation.

2. Remember that we are talking about a game, and trying to help each other enjoy said game. I for one do not come to this forum to argue or show my superiority to others.

TL,DR. Read the rules and quit being a jerk.

[Olaf the Holy]

Sorry I was a jerk. That was uncalled for.

Still though. The template is acquired, and can be applied to humans.

That means it can be applied to a 10HD human antipaladin just fine. It even mentions what happens to class HD. All the example Skeletal Champions have class HD.

I don't see anywhere that says they magically count as 0HD for the purpose of the template. All the example characters align with the CR determination method outlined in the template itself.

As the creator of the thread, let me say that all further discussion of how the template is 'really supposed to work' is off-topic, unless it's accompanied by book or SRD citations to back it up.

What I really want to know though, is what CR do you think a skeletal champion human antipaladin 10 should be.

[Rysky]

Finding that requires narrowing down "how" the template is supposed to work.

[Java Man]

What I think it should be happens to be how I think you put this not really clearly written pile of rules together.

1. Apply the skeleton champion template to a human, the template and base skeleton rules tell you to give a 0 racial hd creature 2 skeleton hd. Get the cr for your 2dd skeleton champion. This has a cr of 2.

2. Add your class levels per standard monster advancement rules.

This hold for the three examples if we consider the samarai levels as not being "key" to the monsters role. Personally I would say that a skeleton champions role is veating stuff, and samarai fits that role, I would say the same applies to your antipaladin question.

Final CR would be either 7 or 12, depending on how we apply the "key" class metric. Since this character should be tougher than a vanilla level 10 AP, I would think that the 12 is more correct. But strict RAW appears to be 7.

[Ascalaphus]

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Sorry I was a jerk. That was uncalled for.

Still though. The template is acquired, and can be applied to humans.

That means it can be applied to a 10HD human antipaladin just fine. It even mentions what happens to class HD. All the example Skeletal Champions have class HD.

I don't see anywhere that says they magically count as 0HD for the purpose of the template. All the example characters align with the CR determination method outlined in the template itself.

As the creator of the thread, let me say that all further discussion of how the template is 'really supposed to work' is off-topic, unless it's accompanied by book or SRD citations to back it up.

What I really want to know though, is what CR do you think a skeletal champion human antipaladin 10 should be.

1) Apology accepted.

2) "The SRD" is not an official source. The only official online source is the PRD. D20PFSRD applies quite a bit of editing to reflect what the maintainers believe is the state of the art of useful; however good their intentions, that means it's not a totally reliable source of pure rules.

3) You can't declare discussion of how the template works off-topic, and then ask us to judge what it's results should be. The best you can do at that point is use the rules for determining the CR of NPCs, the rules for advancing monsters with class levels, or the benchmarks for determining CR for entirely new monsters.

4) You can easily see that the base human race has 0 HD, by looking at the HD of the skeletal champion in the PRD:

Skeletal Champion wrote:

Human skeletal champion warrior 1

hp 17 (3 HD; 2d8+1d10+3)

Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial HD to d8s, then add 2 racial Hit Dice to this total (creatures without racial HD gain 2). HD from class levels are unchanged.

5) Now that we know that we can start working on CR. We start in the same template;

Quote:

CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.

Okay, let's go look at a skeleton then.

Skeleton wrote:

Skeleton" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Challenge Rating: Depends on Hit Dice, as follows:
HD CR XP
1/2 1/6 65
1 1/3 135
2–3 1 400
4–5 2 600
6–7 3 800
8–9 4 1,200
10–11 5 1,600
12–14 6 2,400
15–17 7 3,200
18–20 8 4,800

Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can't be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. A skeleton uses its Cha modifier (instead of its Con modifier) to determine bonus hit points.

Okay, so to figure out the CR of a skeleton made from a human, we ignore it's class levels because a skeleton wouldn't get to keep them. That leaves us with no racial HD (as usual for a humanoid race which advanced through class levels) so we apply the skeletal champion's 2d8 HD. That gets us to CR 1 +1 for the template. Then we put the class levels back on again, using the rules for advancing monsters with class levels. Since we add 1 level of warrior, and the CR adjustment for class levels that match the role is [levels -1], that keeps us at CR 2 and we have just made the standard skeletal champion.

[Olaf the Holy]

Yes, but it's an acquired template.

So what happens, for my purposes, is that a 10th level antipaladin is killed, and then the high priest of whatever religion casts Create Undead on her (or the greater version, if neccesary).

I'd love for someone to explain to me why the 10th level antipaladin counts as a 0level humanoid for the purpose of this template, when such a thing has no prescedence of even existing within the pathfinder rules.

[Ascalaphus]

Actually, the vast majority of humanoids are 0HD races. As in, they don't get racial hit dice. They instead take class levels.

Now, the passage in the skeletal champion that refers to the skeleton CR, is based on the idea that the skeleton doesn't have class levels. So you're computing CR for a monster that doesn't have any class levels, just HD based on being turned into a skeleton. Then, you add back class levels using the "advancing monsters with class levels" mechanics, and increase CR accordingly.

[Aelryinth]

aaand the rules for figuring CR for NPC's is quite contradictory.

But, the general rule is that class levels are NOT converted, they are tacked on afterwards.

So, without class levels, your anti-paladin is a 0 HD creature, turned into a skeletal champion, so 2hd, CR 1.

Then you add the class levels in, precisely as if the monster went out and adventured.

Bing, 12 HD. But the CR1 skeleton, +10 for class levels, -1 for solo NPC, is going to max out at 10.

==Aelryinth

[Olaf the Holy]

This is not Adding Class Levels to a Monster.

This is Adding a template to an NPC. These two are different, if somewhat related concepts.

Look, this is the sum of the text of adding templates, directly from the Beastiary.

Appendix 2, Monster advancement. wrote:

A template is a set of rules that you apply to a monster to

transform it into a different monster. All templates give
precise directions on how to change a monster’s statistics
to transform it into the new monster.

Acquired Templates: Some templates, like the lich, are
the results of a creature’s choice and desire to transform.
Others, like the ghost template, are the result of an
external force acting upon a creature (for example, when
a tormented person dies and becomes a ghost). Yet in
both cases, the template changed a creature well after
its birth or creation—these types are called “acquired
templates,” and can be added to a creature at any time
during its existance.

A 10th level antipaladin npc exists. His NPC CR is 9. He has 10HD.

Now he acquires the Skeletal Champion template.

It says this:

Off of the PRD wrote:

Creating a Skeletal Champion

“Skeletal Champion” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature) and a minimum Intelligence of 3.

CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.

Type: The creature's type becomes undead. It keeps subtypes save for alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind.

Alignment: Any evil.

Armor Class: Natural armor as per skeleton.

Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial HD to d8s, then add 2 racial Hit Dice to this total (creatures without racial HD gain 2). HD from class levels are unchanged.

...(nothing relevant to the above)

Note how it does not say anything about monster advancement. Note how it does not say that you remove class HD - it is quite clear on the fact that they remain.

The skeleton template's resultant challenge rating also explicitly depends on the 'creatures new total number of hit die'.

Which, in our case, is 12.

[Olaf the Holy]

Aelryinth wrote:

aaand the rules for figuring CR for NPC's is quite contradictory.

But, the general rule is that class levels are NOT converted, they are tacked on afterwards.

So, without class levels, your anti-paladin is a 0 HD creature, turned into a skeletal champion, so 2hd, CR 1.

Then you add the class levels in, precisely as if the monster went out and adventured.

Bing, 12 HD. But the CR1 skeleton, +10 for class levels, -1 for solo NPC, is going to max out at 10.

==Aelryinth

Where do you get this from? I don't see any situations where this would be relevant to anything, other than the present one.

That's the general rule for advancing monsters, which is not what I'm doing, so I don't see how it is remotely relevant to anything.

Also, that'd be 2HD, CR 2. Add +1 after figuring out skeletons, remember? So now we're challenge rating 11.

Also, since obviously samurai is considered a non-associated class for skeletal champions (since they're not combat monsters, according to your line of thinking), the first two levels of antipaladin are as well.

[Aelryinth]

uh, what? Where did associated classes come into it? Samurai is a subset of cavalier, which is a spinoff of fighter. I have no idea what is associated with a skeleton.

==Aelryinth

[Olaf the Holy]

Because the example Samurai 2 is considered a CR 3 creature. Not CR 4, which is what would happen if you added 2 associated class levels to a CR 2 creature. The -1 does not apply to monsters that have been advanced through class levels, and you guys want to use those rules for this, for some strange reason.

I'm adding a template to an existing creature, like it says to do in the rules. You guys are using some other rules, where for some reason you remove and add class levels randomly when applying a template. Whatever.

On the plus side, you all seem to want it to be a CR +1 template, and that fits right about with my gut assessment as well, so we'll go with that.

That also fits with Grave Knights being more powerful. So it's all good.

[wraithstrike]

Sometimes the rule for how to find the CR don't show how effective the NPC is really is.

So are you asking for the CR "by the book" or the "effective CR"?

[wraithstrike]

Jason Buhlman(the guy who writes the rules) actually wrote an adventure with a skeletal champion.

This skeletal champion has 3 racial HD and 2 class levels for a total of 5HD. By the rules that makes the skeleton a CR 3, and a skeletal champion a CR 4

What I don't understand is why this skeletal champion has 3 racial HD.

Personally, I think the skeletal champion CR rules are borked.

A 10th level ____ would have 12 HD. That makes it a CR 7 monster when it is more likely to be a CR 12 effectively.

[Olaf the Holy]

Effective CR would be really good. I ballpark it as 10(9th level classed NPC +1 for the template), but I was kind of hoping to hear what the rest of you think.

If it helps any, it's going to be fought in cramped quarters, the group is nearly all good, and the only gear he'll have is a magical greatsword and a mithral breastplate(no enhancement)

Edit: 12? Really? That's the same as 13th level human sorcerer, you know. Or the Example Lich, to use something a little closer to home.

[Olaf the Holy]

Hmm. On further consideration, the template was probably intended to only be used for low-level NPCs.

The 'Skelton of HD +1' metric mostly works out at those levels, I guess. And it's better than CR +1, because the 2 RHD means that if you add it to a Warrior 1, it becomes an unholy terror totally unfit to be considered a CR ½ monster.

They probably had it at CR +1 originally, considered what would happen if it was added to an NPC with just 1 class level, and changed to the skeleton metric of CR, while failing to consider people using the template on NPCs with lots of class levels.

[wraithstrike]

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Effective CR would be really good. I ballpark it as 10(9th level classed NPC +1 for the template), but I was kind of hoping to hear what the rest of you think.

If it helps any, it's going to be fought in cramped quarters, the group is nearly all good, and the only gear he'll have is a magical greatsword and a mithral breastplate(no enhancement)

Edit: 12? Really? That's the same as 13th level human sorcerer, you know. Or the Example Lich, to use something a little closer to home.

12 sounds too good for a skeletal champion. A 10 should work.

[Dracoknight]

wraithstrike wrote:

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Effective CR would be really good. I ballpark it as 10(9th level classed NPC +1 for the template), but I was kind of hoping to hear what the rest of you think.

If it helps any, it's going to be fought in cramped quarters, the group is nearly all good, and the only gear he'll have is a magical greatsword and a mithral breastplate(no enhancement)

Edit: 12? Really? That's the same as 13th level human sorcerer, you know. Or the Example Lich, to use something a little closer to home.

12 sounds too good for a skeletal champion. A 10 should work.

Doesn't the equipment of the character also add to the CR? So if its a monster with player wealth equipment/items isnt that like +1CR aswell?

[Rysky]

Dracoknight wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Effective CR would be really good. I ballpark it as 10(9th level classed NPC +1 for the template), but I was kind of hoping to hear what the rest of you think.

If it helps any, it's going to be fought in cramped quarters, the group is nearly all good, and the only gear he'll have is a magical greatsword and a mithral breastplate(no enhancement)

Edit: 12? Really? That's the same as 13th level human sorcerer, you know. Or the Example Lich, to use something a little closer to home.

12 sounds too good for a skeletal champion. A 10 should work.

Doesn't the equipment of the character also add to the CR? So if its a monster with player wealth equipment/items isnt that like +1CR aswell?

Yes, if they are built with player equivalent wealth rather than NPC wealth they get a +1 CR

[Liz Courts]

Removed some posts and their responses. Please be civil, folks, and FAQ the first post.