Assistance with Paladin build


Advice


Hello everyone,

I am looking for specific advice on my Paladin build - we're gonna be put through some nasty piece of dungeon delving (not gonna add any more details because I really don't want any spoilers), and I'm kinda debating if this girl will be tough enough, and well prepared enough.

We rolled for stats, and I got a mind blowing set: 18, 16, 14, 14, 13, 12.

Characters are built at level 4 with WBL (6000gp), and I'm hesitant in some of my choices - mainly gear, and that dip in Oracle (done because of a minor fluff reason, but more because of the Nature's Whispers revelation, and adding Charisma to AC and CMD, even though I don't think I can fit a Mithril Breastplate in there right off the bat). Also... I get the feeling my AC is too low.

Character is below, and any opinions are welcome.

Tessai:

Tessai
Female kyton-spawn tiefling oracle 1/paladin (oath of vengeance) 3 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 22, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 42, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 60)
LG Medium outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
Aura courage (10 ft.)
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 39 (4 HD; 1d8+3d10+12)
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +10; +2 vs. death
Immune disease, fear; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 greatsword +7 (2d6+10/19-20) or
. . cold iron morningstar +6 (1d8+6) or
. . mwk cold iron longsword +7 (1d8+6/19-20) or
. . silver light mace +6 (1d6+6)
Ranged sling +5 (1d4+4)
Special Attacks smite evil 1/day (+4 attack and AC, +3 damage)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +8)
. . 1/day—web (DC 16)
Paladin Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd; concentration +7)
. . At will—detect evil
Oracle Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +5)
. . 1st (4/day)—cure light wounds, divine favor, protection from evil
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, light, purify food and drink (DC 14)
. . Mystery Nature
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +3; CMB +6; CMD 21
Feats Fey Foundling[ISWG], Power Attack
Traits dangerously curious, fate's favored
Skills Acrobatics -1 (-5 to jump), Diplomacy +8, Escape Artist +1, Heal +9, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +3, Knowledge (religion) +9, Use Magic Device +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Escape Artist, +2 Intimidate
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Infernal
SQ lay on hands 5/day (1d6), mercy (sickened), oracle's curse (legalistic), revelation (nature's whispers), tiefling paladin, vow to self
Combat Gear potion of touch of the sea, wand of cure light wounds (25 charges), air crystal, antiplague[APG], bladeguard[APG], healer's kit, vermin repellent[UE] (2); Other Gear +1 breastplate, heavy wooden shield, +1 greatsword, cold iron morningstar, mwk cold iron longsword, silver light mace, sling, sling bullets (20), cloak of resistance +1, bandolier[UE], crowbar, masterwork backpack[APG], silk rope (50 ft.), smoked goggles[APG], trail rations (10), waterskin, 39 gp, 5 sp
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Special Abilities
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+3 when using Lay on hands for yourself. Add +1 to the amount of damage the paladin heals with lay on hands, but only when the paladin uses that ability on herself.
Aura of Courage +4 (10 ft.) (Su) Allies in aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs. fear.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Fey Foundling Magical healing works better on you
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Lay on Hands (1d6 hit points, 5/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Legalistic The shackles of Hell impose savage consequences should you violate a covenant, but also imbue you with remarkable guile. Whenever you break your word (either purposefully or unintentionally), you become sickened for 24 hours or until you meet your ob
Mercy (Sickened) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the sickened condition.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) +4 to hit, +3 to damage, +4 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Vow to Self (1/day) +4 morale bonus to one role to keep a promise.


I guess that means my paladin looks good :D


Yeah. Looks solid. 70% of maximum possible AC is huge. I love playing paladins. I hope you have a blast with this one, even with the oracle dip!! lol


max possible --> HP <--, I meant. ugh. need more coffee.


Thanks for the input Syrus. Let's just see how long she survives ;)

Any ideas on how I should progress her from here, as far as feats go? I was planning on taking Extra Lay on Hands at level 5.


With decent enough stats, the Oracle dip may be a tad bit unnecessary, and with the amount of effective health you get from being a tiefling paladin with Fey Foundling, I'd consider going for a 16 in DEX rather than CON. You may find yourself better off as a straight paladin, for better class progression.

In Inner Sea Races there are options that basically give you Scion of Humanity for Tieflings, which may be beneficial to you, since you can get around the whole fiendish appearance thing, and you don't seem to be employing the Tiefling features that would prevent it. Mechanically it also allows you to take Human feats, favored class bonuses, and be targeted by buffs like enlarge person.

I personally don't like UMD on paladins. All the useful wands you would use it for (Lesser Restoration, CLW) you can use without one anyway. IMO that trait is better off being something else, to mind Extremely Fashionable works well since it gives you +1/+1 on Diplomacy and Intimidate and makes one a class skill (Bluff also, but you know, paladin) and Magical Knack will help get more out of Fate's Favored by bumping the CL of Divine Favor and Divine Power if you get it eventually. It also ties into Fey Foundling, RP-wise.

Since you have the INT for it, Unsanctioned Knowledge opens a lot of doors for some really strong builds. Shield of Faith is a strong 1st level spell, and it saves you money overall on a Ring of Protection, but it does not stack with the deflection bonus from smite. Since you took Fate's Favored, Divine Power is one of the best options you get from that feat later on. If you mix it with Blessing of Ferver (which you get for your oath) you end up with what I like to call "Better Haste". Also, you can get Haste. Dimension Door is another option with that feat, which opens up the Dimensional Savant feat chain for teleporting pounce late game.

Only other thing to really consider is your racial SLA, which has options to be traded out from Blood of Fiends, if the DM is cool with that. Unless you like Web, in which case keep it.

Grand Lodge

master_marshmallow wrote:

With decent enough stats, the Oracle dip may be a tad bit unnecessary, and with the amount of effective health you get from being a tiefling paladin with Fey Foundling, I'd consider going for a 16 in DEX rather than CON. You may find yourself better off as a straight paladin, for better class progression.

In Inner Sea Races there are options that basically give you Scion of Humanity for Tieflings, which may be beneficial to you, since you can get around the whole fiendish appearance thing, and you don't seem to be employing the Tiefling features that would prevent it. Mechanically it also allows you to take Human feats, favored class bonuses, and be targeted by buffs like enlarge person.

I personally don't like UMD on paladins. All the useful wands you would use it for (Lesser Restoration, CLW) you can use without one anyway. IMO that trait is better off being something else, to mind Extremely Fashionable works well since it gives you +1/+1 on Diplomacy and Intimidate and makes one a class skill (Bluff also, but you know, paladin) and Magical Knack will help get more out of Fate's Favored by bumping the CL of Divine Favor and Divine Power if you get it eventually. It also ties into Fey Foundling, RP-wise.

Since you have the INT for it, Unsanctioned Knowledge opens a lot of doors for some really strong builds. Shield of Faith is a strong 1st level spell, and it saves you money overall on a Ring of Protection, but it does not stack with the deflection bonus from smite. Since you took Fate's Favored, Divine Power is one of the best options you get from that feat later on. If you mix it with Blessing of Ferver (which you get for your oath) you end up with what I like to call "Better Haste". Also, you can get Haste. Dimension Door is another option with that feat, which opens up the Dimensional Savant feat chain for teleporting pounce late game.

Only other thing to really consider is your racial SLA, which has options to be traded out from Blood of Fiends, if the DM is cool with that. Unless you like...

Lots of Very good Advice here.

But I am a fan of UMD as scrolls of Mirror Image or Blur is cheap and highly effective (if you din't Unsanctioned Knowledge it onto your list.)
Many other buffs can be a big help to you as well. Defending bone is very cheap DR for 2nd level spell. When the group starts finding higher end scrolls or you have a wizard in the party making scrolls you will greatly benefit from the skill. Can't reach a target cause you just didn't want a bow...Throw a Fireball at it. Need fly? still a rather cheap scroll. Potions can get expensive in comparison.

I would Keep UMD and Drop the dip. If you keep the Dip then maybe UMD might not be the best since you can access both Paladin and Cleric spell lists for activation purposes.


I have a read a lot on double dipping to full blown multiclassing. In this case you are better off as a straight Paladin. Paladins like the spell casters just get stronger being one class.
Dex being higher then strength is the biggest change. Switch to Weapon Finesse and take a light melee weapon. Then go two weapon fighting increasing your damage output, switching to a heavy shield for tougher fights. A feat to consider is Unsactioned Knowledge allowing you to take spells other then a Paladin. The spell Lead Blades is Ranger spell which increases the die damage a weapon does. A Longsword goes from a D8 to 2D6.


As your gm, allow me to stress that you should not, under any circumstances, go dex based.

Because I guarantee you, once your smites run out(oath of vengeance is cute, sure, but not nearly enough for where you're headed) a dex-based twf build will be standing around with its twin daggers in one hand and its schlong in the other.


Olaf the Holy wrote:

As your gm, allow me to stress that you should not, under any circumstances, go dex based.

Because I guarantee you, once your smites run out(oath of vengeance is cute, sure, but not nearly enough for where you're headed) a dex-based twf build will be standing around with its twin daggers in one hand and its schlong in the other.

Unless you're 3 levels deep in URogue, but that's a different matter.

Since your DEX literally cannot be a negative value, you'd be fine rocking full plate, since you can eventually afford DEX boosters to max it out, and full plate has a better max (and minimum) AC than any other armor besides haramakis and stark nakedness (which have no max AC). No need for the Oracle dip, since that sort of dip would fit more along the lines of making you DEX-independent. You have a good enough DEX that substituting your CHA isn't going to make much of a difference (+2 to CMD, +up to 2 AC, depending on armor). Oracles who spend their stuff on CHA usually use it to replace all their DEX all over (noble scion feat + DEX to AC from a mystery makes you wonderfully SAD, until you need to use a bow).


Olaf the Holy wrote:

As your gm, allow me to stress that you should not, under any circumstances, go dex based.

Because I guarantee you, once your smites run out(oath of vengeance is cute, sure, but not nearly enough for where you're headed) a dex-based twf build will be standing around with its twin daggers in one hand and its schlong in the other.

Since you're the DM, what options are/aren't available to him, out of what's been discussed?


A TWF Paldin with Dual Enhancement and the stats to go strength-based with 17DEX for TWF/ITWF can be pretty brutal without smite, let alone with it.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Olaf the Holy wrote:

As your gm, allow me to stress that you should not, under any circumstances, go dex based.

Because I guarantee you, once your smites run out(oath of vengeance is cute, sure, but not nearly enough for where you're headed) a dex-based twf build will be standing around with its twin daggers in one hand and its schlong in the other.

Since you're the DM, what options are/aren't available to him, out of what's been discussed?

Pretty much everything. In my opinion, taking variant tiefling locks in her SLA, so she can't exchange it for something else, but beyond that everything is good.


Thanks for the feedback guys - we've already started the game, so I am not 100% sure I can now revert my choices. It still can be an exercise on 'what I could have done better' :D

master_marshmallow wrote:

With decent enough stats, the Oracle dip may be a tad bit unnecessary, and with the amount of effective health you get from being a tiefling paladin with Fey Foundling, I'd consider going for a 16 in DEX rather than CON. You may find yourself better off as a straight paladin, for better class progression.

In Inner Sea Races there are options that basically give you Scion of Humanity for Tieflings, which may be beneficial to you, since you can get around the whole fiendish appearance thing, and you don't seem to be employing the Tiefling features that would prevent it. Mechanically it also allows you to take Human feats, favored class bonuses, and be targeted by buffs like enlarge person.

I personally don't like UMD on paladins. All the useful wands you would use it for (Lesser Restoration, CLW) you can use without one anyway. IMO that trait is better off being something else, to mind Extremely Fashionable works well since it gives you +1/+1 on Diplomacy and Intimidate and makes one a class skill (Bluff also, but you know, paladin) and Magical Knack will help get more out of Fate's Favored by bumping the CL of Divine Favor and Divine Power if you get it eventually. It also ties into Fey Foundling, RP-wise.

Since you have the INT for it, Unsanctioned Knowledge opens a lot of doors for some really strong builds. Shield of Faith is a strong 1st level spell, and it saves you money overall on a Ring of Protection, but it does not stack with the deflection bonus from smite. Since you took Fate's Favored, Divine Power is one of the best options you get from that feat later on. If you mix it with Blessing of Ferver (which you get for your oath) you end up with what I like to call "Better Haste". Also, you can get Haste. Dimension Door is another option with that feat, which opens up the Dimensional Savant feat chain for teleporting pounce late game.

Only other thing to really consider is your racial SLA, which has options to be traded out from Blood of Fiends, if the DM is cool with that. Unless you like...

Ok, there is a lot to take in :D

As far as I see it, the Oracle dip offers me an added cushion in terms of divine spells right off the bat, nothing impressive mind you, but still 2xlevel 1 spells/day... I'm looking mainly at Protection from Evil.

As far as the AC bonus go, it is only a +1 at the moment (vs. if I didn't dip), but I am hoping it to become a +2 when/if I can get my hands on a Mithril Breastplate - I'm not sure how easy or strightforward that will be, but I am hopeful. +2AC already sounds solid in my book, no?

I did consider the 16 to Dexterity but, and I usually favor Dex over Con, but it hasn't worked out phenomenally for me - I usual end up looking at too few hp, and I really wouldn't want that to happen this time around, and on a frontliner of all things. Another thing that tipped my decision is the fact that our group is not swimming in healing ability :D

The Scion of Humanity is a good suggestion - I will look into it. But truth be told, I did miss something I wanted to add as far as racial traits go - thinking of Fiendish Sprinter, Scaled Skin and maybe Prehensile Tail (it is useful, and stupidly cool).

UMD is there because of what Fruian pointed out - I am a sucker for martial characters who can throw some sand in the gears. Stuff like Mirror Image and/or Blur or Fly can make a huge difference - some of it are pure defense layering (kudos to Fruian on this, because I read it on one of his posts), but there is also crazy versatility even with level 1 or 2 scrolls.

Unsanctioned Knowledge is definitely on my horizon, even more so because the only feats I am looking at for the next couple of levels are Extra Lay on Hands (I plan on taking this one as soon as possible) and Greater Mercy, so I am sure there is a place for Unsanctioned Knowledge.

One question: What condition do you think I should aim at removing with my first Mercy?


BadBird wrote:
A TWF Paldin with Dual Enhancement and the stats to go strength-based with 17DEX for TWF/ITWF can be pretty brutal without smite, let alone with it.

Sure, but I don't know that I'd take Dual Enhancement before level 9 - a feat for a 1/d thing seems like a bad trade, tbh.

The main problem is that she needs to be useful now.

Suppose she went Paladin of Vengeance 4, with Str18/Dex16/Cha18/Con14, dropped power attack for TWF and wore a breastplate. No AC increase, 4hp lost, and her normal attack routine goes from +7 2d6+10(standard, PA, +1) +7/+7 1d8+5/1d6+2(full, +1/Mwk).

It's not a huge loss of functionality, but it isn't a good deal either. The main reason it looks roughly as good is because her current build has an oracle dip. If it was paladin 4 vs paladin 4, it would be much clearer who's getting ahead here. Her average damage drops from 17 on a standard action to 15 on a full attack. When smiting, it's 20(1 attack) vs 23(TWF). So at least that's good. But you're still reliant on full attacks. Which do happen, sure, but not always. And then you're looking at 9.5 damage, 13.5 if smiting.


Albion, The Eye wrote:

Thanks for the feedback guys - we've already started the game, so I am not 100% sure I can now revert my choices. It still can be an exercise on 'what I could have done better' :D

master_marshmallow wrote:

With decent enough stats, the Oracle dip may be a tad bit unnecessary, and with the amount of effective health you get from being a tiefling paladin with Fey Foundling, I'd consider going for a 16 in DEX rather than CON. You may find yourself better off as a straight paladin, for better class progression.

In Inner Sea Races there are options that basically give you Scion of Humanity for Tieflings, which may be beneficial to you, since you can get around the whole fiendish appearance thing, and you don't seem to be employing the Tiefling features that would prevent it. Mechanically it also allows you to take Human feats, favored class bonuses, and be targeted by buffs like enlarge person.

I personally don't like UMD on paladins. All the useful wands you would use it for (Lesser Restoration, CLW) you can use without one anyway. IMO that trait is better off being something else, to mind Extremely Fashionable works well since it gives you +1/+1 on Diplomacy and Intimidate and makes one a class skill (Bluff also, but you know, paladin) and Magical Knack will help get more out of Fate's Favored by bumping the CL of Divine Favor and Divine Power if you get it eventually. It also ties into Fey Foundling, RP-wise.

Since you have the INT for it, Unsanctioned Knowledge opens a lot of doors for some really strong builds. Shield of Faith is a strong 1st level spell, and it saves you money overall on a Ring of Protection, but it does not stack with the deflection bonus from smite. Since you took Fate's Favored, Divine Power is one of the best options you get from that feat later on. If you mix it with Blessing of Ferver (which you get for your oath) you end up with what I like to call "Better Haste". Also, you can get Haste. Dimension Door is another option with that feat, which opens up the

...

If anything the Oracle dip makes UMD even worse.

Blur and Mirror Image are both options with Unsanctioned Knowledge, and by the time you could afford the wand, you'll be better off without it.

Fatigued is probably the best Mercy to pick up, and it makes Combat Stamina an interesting feat.


@Fruian: I agree, and will try to go that way. Versatility is the name of the game. The only thing that worries me is having the time to actually use them, but then again I guess most of those should be pre-combat casts.

I think that even with Unsanctioned Knowledge, I can still find some pretty useful scrolls to carry around ;)

@Derek: I have a pet peeve with Dexterity builds which I described a little further on another thread but, bottom line, I have the feeling Dex builds strongly depend on investing on a particular weapon (or set of weapons) because of the nature of the feats involved (slashing grace, fencing grace, etc) to make it efficient.

Now... In PFS that is quite ok, because you fully manage your magical items ('magic mart' type), but on an AP or module, or whatever have you, things can be quite different - you can go for levels on end without finding a sizable town to upgrade your scimitar or rapier, much less finding one that carries the enchantments you want/need.

Thus, I feel like going STR based allows me greater versatility - I can still vie to upgrade my weapons if the means are available, but if they are not, I can just pick the baddest one we found and go to town with it.

@Olaf: Hey, there's my GM!! Thanks for the tip Olaf :D

@My Self: So you don't think those extra +2 to AC will be making a difference? :D

@BadBird: Now THAT is something I should have probably considered, at least to see how she would turn out - how would you have done the feat progression on such a build? :D

Grand Lodge

Albion, The Eye wrote:

@Fruian: I agree, and will try to go that way. Versatility is the name of the game. The only thing that worries me is having the time to actually use them, but then again I guess most of those should be pre-combat casts.

I think that even with Unsanctioned Knowledge, I can still find some pretty useful scrolls to carry around ;)

Scroll of Defending Bone- At Minimum Lasts 3 hours

Scroll of Mirror Image- 3 minutes...but there are times in play where you can conclude there is about to be a big fight. It is in those fights you want those miss chances.

Heroism- 50 minutes

False Life- 3/hours 1d10+3 HP

Scrolls of Frigid Touch inside Spell storing Armor- Just the LOL of this against TWFers.

Scrolls of Vampiric Touch in Spell Storing Weapon- Cause the look on the face of your groups face when they see why you never need more than a +1 Spellstoring weapon is Priceless.

Scrolls of See invisible- 30 minutes

Scroll of Bullet Ward- 30 minutes Just saying No to 1 attack from a gunslinger can mean life or death. Stupid Touch attacks. Very situational but there are GMs who like to throw them in as villains.

Hold Portal- Sometimes Escaping is the only option. For 25gp I tend to keep 1 of these on me. It can also prevent an enemy from escaping by locking his only door out. Maybe the alarm was sounded and the enemy will be coming from that door...for 25g you saved your entire team from being swarmed. Much better than 1 swing of a greatsword.

But as I have pointed out there are MANY long lasting buffs to pick up. I left out much of the Utility and situational spells. I have found most people just don't think, "I should buff now." The way I approach them is: I cast hour long buffs going into the dungeon. I then Cast Min per level when I expect things behind the door. (Scouted, Divinationed, Perception). I try not to over buff but find a good little balance.

I'd like to point you to Armor of the Pit Feat as well. +2 AC (not enhancement bonus). Paired with a cheap Amulet of NA you can spike your NA pretty cheaply. And since your not using a shield while 2 handing it can help you shore up your AC for those Iterative/Secondary attacks you have to weather on the front lines.


Olaf the Holy wrote:
The main problem is that she needs to be useful now.

Basically this yes - I understand I am compromising some of my capability by dipping Oracle, and hoping to survive to level 5 to then get Pala4, Mithril Breastplate, etc. But going TWF right now might be compromising too much...

@master_marshmallow: I can't seem to find Combat Stamina - is it on the PFSRD?

@Fruian: Thank you for all the tips - I will keep ALL of them in mind :D

Also, Armor of the Pit got me thinking if I should invest a feat on it, or stick with only Scaled Skin (I don't think they stack).

Grand Lodge

Albion, The Eye wrote:

Also, Armor of the Pit got me thinking if I should invest a feat on it, or stick with only Scaled Skin (I don't think they stack).

They do not. Really its worth the Feat and keeping your 3 resistances. That way you end up with +2 NA and resist 5 for 3 elements Vs. Scales Skin + Feat= +2 Natural Armor and Resist 5 to 2 elements. The feat is the way to go. Scaled skin is a nice alternative but I would never take both as they do not really stack and come out worst for the double investment.

If you have the feat to wiggle in I suggest the feat. If not go with the trait as the +1 AC is always a welcome addition.


Yeah, I think I'll have to stick with the trait, since at the moment the feat would mean dropping either Fey Foundling or Power Attack :P

Had we started at level 5, I would probably fit that one in.


Here's the link.

Grand Lodge

Albion, The Eye wrote:

Yeah, I think I'll have to stick with the trait, since at the moment the feat would mean dropping either Fey Foundling or Power Attack :P

Had we started at level 5, I would probably fit that one in.

Understandable completely, Luckily it is not a Level 1 feat so you could always work it in later if you have to room. Its only a suggestion.

Here is a suggestion, I made the build and go a fat NO from my DM cause it is a boss killer. VMC Cavalier Order of the Stars. You give up feats and it hurts a little (on the inside). But Smite + Challenge and 1/2 your Cav Levels to your Lay on hands is a very nice boost indeed. As good as Extra lay on Hands and Greater Mercy. Focusing Pure Paladin 2 handed you don't need many feats other than Power attack and Fey Foundling.


Dang! I can see where that would take you - and again, if I was starting at level 5 and VMC was allowed (not sure it ever came up), this would be definitely a possibility. Mainly because yeah, with Fey Foundling and Power Attack you have the basic chassis for Paladin :D

But... Here are my two doubts:

- What are exactly your Cavalier levels? The same as your main class?
- Also, is the boost to LoH and channels always in play, or only when you pray for the Calling?

Grand Lodge

Albion, The Eye wrote:

Dang! I can see where that would take you - and again, if I was starting at level 5 and VMC was allowed (not sure it ever came up), this would be definitely a possibility. Mainly because yeah, with Fey Foundling and Power Attack you have the basic chassis for Paladin :D

But... Here are my two doubts:

- What are exactly your Cavalier levels? The same as your main class?
- Also, is the boost to LoH and channels always in play, or only when you pray for the Calling?

1: Same as your Level. You Challenge at -2 levels (as it specifically call it out)...but really that is no big deal in the scheme of things as you will also be Boosting your damage in other ways. (Divine Bond, Magical weapons, Buffs, Str belt.) It also is pretty good to have a challenge for those Pesky Neutral creature, Golems, and other nasty things that smite just doesn't work on.

2: The boost to LoH is full time. The Calling ability is just a little extra you can do if you ever feel like it. Its not bad to use right before the door swings open. It does say Ability Checks....Initiative Checks is what I hear in that....so you can start using it's ability round 1 of combat and be much better off in the Initiative order.


Olaf the Holy wrote:
BadBird wrote:
A TWF Paldin with Dual Enhancement and the stats to go strength-based with 17DEX for TWF/ITWF can be pretty brutal without smite, let alone with it.

Sure, but I don't know that I'd take Dual Enhancement before level 9 - a feat for a 1/d thing seems like a bad trade, tbh.

The main problem is that she needs to be useful now...

How potent TWF is depends on how you go about it. For example, just going 'sword-and-fist' with a cestus or gauntlet or whatever means you can two-hand single attacks all you want, and dipping a level of Monk instead of Oracle gains full Power Attack and strength bonus on unarmed strike offhands. Going for TWF doesn't mean building something mindless that fails to really use it.


Guys, an update - this is the final version I am going with. I have the feeling we are about to begin our first fight in earnest. So far we've had time to prepare, and buff. I'll let you know how it went.

Tessai:

Tessai
Female kyton-spawn tiefling oracle 1/paladin (oath of vengeance) 3 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 22, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 42, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 60)
LG Medium outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
Aura courage (10 ft.)
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 18 (+7 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 43 (4 HD; 1d8+3d10+12)
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +10; +2 vs. death
Immune disease, fear; Resist fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 greatsword +7 (2d6+10/19-20) or
. . cold iron morningstar +6 (1d8+6) or
. . mwk cold iron longsword +7 (1d8+6/19-20) or
. . silver light mace +6 (1d6+6)
Ranged sling +5 (1d4+4)
Special Attacks smite evil 1/day (+4 attack and AC, +3 damage)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +8)
. . 1/day—web (DC 16)
Paladin Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd; concentration +7)
. . At will—detect evil
Oracle Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +5)
. . 1st (4/day)—cure light wounds, divine favor, protection from evil
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, light, purify food and drink (DC 14)
. . Mystery Nature
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +3; CMB +6; CMD 21
Feats Fey Foundling[ISWG], Power Attack
Traits dangerously curious, fate's favored
Skills Acrobatics -1 (-5 to jump), Diplomacy +8, Heal +9, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +3, Knowledge (religion) +9, Use Magic Device +12
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Infernal
SQ fiendish sprinter, lay on hands 5/day (1d6), mercy (fatigued), oracle's curse (legalistic), prehensile tail, revelation (nature's whispers), tiefling paladin, vow to self
Combat Gear potion of bless weapon, potion of touch of the sea, wand of cure light wounds (30 charges), air crystal, antiplague[APG], bladeguard[APG], healer's kit, smelling salts[APG], vermin repellent[UE] (2); Other Gear +1 breastplate, heavy wooden shield, +1 greatsword, cold iron morningstar, mwk cold iron longsword, silver light mace, sling, sling bullets (20), cloak of resistance +1, bandolier[UE], crowbar, masterwork backpack[APG], silk rope (50 ft.), smoked goggles[APG], trail rations (10), waterskin, wrist sheath[UE], 66 gp, 5 sp
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Special Abilities
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+3 when using Lay on hands for yourself. Add +1 to the amount of damage the paladin heals with lay on hands, but only when the paladin uses that ability on herself.
Aura of Courage +4 (10 ft.) (Su) Allies in aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs. fear.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Fey Foundling Magical healing works better on you
Fiendish Sprinter 10-ft speed bonus when using charge, run or withdraw.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Lay on Hands (1d6 hit points, 5/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Legalistic The shackles of Hell impose savage consequences should you violate a covenant, but also imbue you with remarkable guile. Whenever you break your word (either purposefully or unintentionally), you become sickened for 24 hours or until you meet your ob
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) +4 to hit, +3 to damage, +4 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Vow to Self (1/day) +4 morale bonus to one role to keep a promise.

@BadBird: I was not dismissing your idea, so apologies if it felt like I was. Would you show me some pointers on how you would build her at level 4?

@Fruian: I have to stat out that character, even if just for the sake of it :D

Grand Lodge

No Holy Symbol?

I'm noticing a lacking of an Alchemist fire to help deal with swarms. It is better than doing nothing.

Anti-plague? Are you not immune to Disease? Maybe Anti-Venom?


Wow... I forgot Alchemist Fire :P
Anti-Plague was to assist others if needed.
Anti-venom is very well thought :D
Holy Symbol added.

Thanks Fruian.

Grand Lodge

Albion, The Eye wrote:

Wow... I forgot Alchemist Fire :P

Anti-Plague was to assist others if needed.
Anti-venom is very well thought :D
Holy Symbol added.

Thanks Fruian.

Welcome. I'd hope you have fun with this Paladin.


Thanks again! I'll make sure to keep you guys updated on how she fares.


Albion, The Eye wrote:
@BadBird: I was not dismissing your idea, so apologies if it felt like I was. Would you show me some pointers on how you would build her at level 4?

Nah, I was just responding to another post. Whether or not TWF is even going to be worth doing at level 4 depends on a lot of things, like how often you're going to be using Divine Favor, whether or not you would be using a greatsword if you weren't going with TWF, and whether or not you want to use a shield.

If I simply wanted to maximize TWF at level 4 on a Paladin with a multiclass level dip, I'd probably take a level of Monk or Brawler and go with Fey Foundling, TWF, Power Attack. All single attacks would be with a sword in two hands, while full attacks would be sword and 1d6 unarmed strike with full strength and Power Attack to both. Alternatively, I might instead do the same thing but with a level of Blood Conduit Bloodrager to gain Rage and Improved Unarmed Strike, then take Dragon Style for an offhand attack fixed at 1.5xSTR on a character with huge strength. Either of these builds can give up two-handing single attacks to instead carry a shield; you can still use unarmed strike while just holding a shield. When it comes time to enhance unarmed strike, the Bodywrap of Mighty Striking means you don't need to use Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Honestly though, if using a level of Oracle for the DEX->CHA swap is a fixed part of your concept then TWF doesn't make a lot of sense, because you need to stack dexterity anyhow.

EDIT: Though I have to say, Bloodrager/Paladin is pretty great for a greatsword wielder as well - who doesn't like Holy Rage? Eventually you can use mithral full plate while still getting the Fast Movement bonus, take Raging Vitality with 16CON for a 22CON while raging, and use Lay on Hands to cure fatigue. Plus, Furious Weapon. The only real drawback is that you want to occasionally drop a feat into Extra Rage.

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