Monster Feats: One of My Favorite Toys

[Neal Litherland]

Monster feats have a certain forbidden spice to them. I've run into a lot of players who think they're not actually allowed to take them, even if they qualify. Which is why this week I put together For A Change of Pace, Give Your Pathfinder PCs Some Monster Feats. It has some of my personal favorites as a player, and points out a few ways that you can easily qualify for monster feats, even if you're only playing as one of the core races.

[wraithstrike]

A lot of people seem to think that, but the rules never say it. I think the only one I have ever used is improved natural attack.

[Neal Litherland]

Craft Construct is one that I'll be taking soon in my current Mummy's Mask campaign. Got some ridiculous stuff I'll be making on behalf of the party.

[Blueskier]

Please, read Multiattack. You need to have 3 natural attacks, so you need feral mutagen, not vestigial arm. Also, vestigial arm does not let you make more attacks nor take more actions. Finally, multiattack's benefit only applies if you have secondary natural attacks.

[Neal Litherland]

Blueskier wrote:

Please, read Multiattack. You need to have 3 natural attacks, so you need feral mutagen, not vestigial arm. Also, vestigial arm does not let you make more attacks nor take more actions. Finally, multiattack's benefit only applies if you have secondary natural attacks.

Blueskier, I believe that Multiweapon Attack is the feat you're referring to, since that's the one the post uses alchemists as an example for. That feat IS used for weapon attacks by characters with three or more limbs capable of wielding weapons. The third arm can be used with Two Weapon Fighting, which Multiweapon Fighting replaces for creatures with more than two limbs.

Multiattack is mentioned earlier, and it is mentioned as part of an example where you have a bite and two claw attacks via feats, traits, or racial abilities.

[Deighton Thrane]

Ummm, multi-weapon fighting is pretty terrible for anything but a kasatha or shape changing alchemist, since you can't make extra attacks with vestigial arms.

[zainale]

simple mistake is simple to fix....... i hope.

[Dave Justus]

I agree that Multiweapon attack does nothing for an alchemist with a vestigial arm. Even with other multiple limbed forms it is questionable. Unless you already have an ability (like the Kasatha multiarmed) to make multiple off hand attacks it simply doesn't apply.

I also think your Racial Heritage(Storm Giant) is extremely questionable. Racial Heritage requires that you choose another humanoid race, not just another humanoid. While race isn't precisely defined as a game term, it certainly seems to refer to the kinds of things you can play. Racial Heritage is certainly abusable enough as it is.

Lastly, while you are certainly correct that there are no rules against taking a monster feat, the placement of the feats and there presentation as not being player options does I think imply that one would expect to require special GM permission for taking them. Many are fine, and most GMs probably wouldn't have a problem with a lot of them if you meet the pre-reqs, but I would never assume to have blanket approval for them simply because it doesn't say that you can't take them. I would personally reserve the right to say no to any monster feat that I didn't think was balanced, even though generally I let players take any published feat (we have a large group, so leadership usually is not allowed).

[Neal Litherland]

Deighton Thrane wrote:

Ummm, multi-weapon fighting is pretty terrible for anything but a kasatha or shape changing alchemist, since you can't make extra attacks with vestigial arms.

The impression I received from the reading is that it was by taking Multiweapon Fighting that you were able to utilize all your limbs, since it replaces two-weapon fighting for creatures with more than two arms. You can make attacks with a vestigial limb, but you cannot make 3 attacks in a round if you have three limbs without this feat. I was under the impression that Multiweapon Fighting gave you that ability, in the same way that Two Weapon Fighting gives you the ability to make two attacks when you only have a left and a right arm.

[Neal Litherland]

Dave Justus wrote:

I agree that Multiweapon attack does nothing for an alchemist with a vestigial arm. Even with other multiple limbed forms it is questionable. Unless you already have an ability (like the Kasatha multiarmed) to make multiple off hand attacks it simply doesn't apply.

I also think your Racial Heritage(Storm Giant) is extremely questionable. Racial Heritage requires that you choose another humanoid race, not just another humanoid. While race isn't precisely defined as a game term, it certainly seems to refer to the kinds of things you can play. Racial Heritage is certainly abusable enough as it is.

Lastly, while you are certainly correct that there are no rules against taking a monster feat, the placement of the feats and there presentation as not being player options does I think imply that one would expect to require special GM permission for taking them. Many are fine, and most GMs probably wouldn't have a problem with a lot of them if you meet the pre-reqs, but I would never assume to have blanket approval for them simply because it doesn't say that you can't take them. I would personally reserve the right to say no to any monster feat that I didn't think was balanced, even though generally I let players take any published feat (we have a large group, so leadership usually is not allowed).

It seems unnecessary to reserve the right to deny it, since anything you're allowed to have at the table is subject to DM discretion.

Regarding which races you can and can't use with Racial Heritage, though, I let myself be guided by the favored enemy chart. I could see arguing that storm or cloud giant heritage is too specific, and that you'd only be allowed general giant, but it's clearly listed as a humanoid race.

[N. Jolly]

Neal Litherland wrote:

Deighton Thrane wrote:

Ummm, multi-weapon fighting is pretty terrible for anything but a kasatha or shape changing alchemist, since you can't make extra attacks with vestigial arms.

The impression I received from the reading is that it was by taking Multiweapon Fighting that you were able to utilize all your limbs, since it replaces two-weapon fighting for creatures with more than two arms. You can make attacks with a vestigial limb, but you cannot make 3 attacks in a round if you have three limbs without this feat. I was under the impression that Multiweapon Fighting gave you that ability, in the same way that Two Weapon Fighting gives you the ability to make two attacks when you only have a left and a right arm.

Nah, it's a damn shame how useless vestigial limb really is. No extra attacks, trust me I'd love to be wrong. Going with a race with natural claws and throwing on Feral Mutagen to put claws on your vestigial arms plus giving you a bite attack would be the new alchemist meta, but sadly that isn't the case. Trust me, I'm still trying to argue that you should be able to put the claws on your feet to make a true beastmaster, but alchemist is already 5 flavors of hype on natural attacks without those shenanigoats.

[Dave Justus]

Neal Litherland wrote:

Deighton Thrane wrote:

Ummm, multi-weapon fighting is pretty terrible for anything but a kasatha or shape changing alchemist, since you can't make extra attacks with vestigial arms.

The impression I received from the reading is that it was by taking Multiweapon Fighting that you were able to utilize all your limbs, since it replaces two-weapon fighting for creatures with more than two arms. You can make attacks with a vestigial limb, but you cannot make 3 attacks in a round if you have three limbs without this feat. I was under the impression that Multiweapon Fighting gave you that ability, in the same way that Two Weapon Fighting gives you the ability to make two attacks when you only have a left and a right arm.

So does that mean you think a monk could take multiweapon fighting and get a virtually unlimited number off attacks, since they can make an unarmed attack with pretty much any body part?

It is important to realize the Two Weapon fighting does NOT give you the ability to make more attacks (although improved TWF etc. does.) It reduces the penalties on those attacks, it does not grant additional ones.

[Dave Justus]

Neal Litherland wrote:

Regarding which races you can and can't use with Racial Heritage, though, I let myself be guided by the favored enemy chart. I could see arguing that storm or cloud giant heritage is too specific, and that you'd only be allowed general giant, but it's clearly listed as a humanoid race.

That seems like a strange choice since nothing in favored enemy talks about race.

It talks about subtype. Some subtypes are also races, but certainly no all of them. There is no "aquatic" race for example, although it is a subtype.

Clearly from some since of the word there is indeed a race of Storm Giants in the Golarion world. That doesn't seem to be the sense that racial heritage is using the term though, I read that is meaning 'playable race'.

[Neal Litherland]

Dave Justus wrote:

Neal Litherland wrote:

Regarding which races you can and can't use with Racial Heritage, though, I let myself be guided by the favored enemy chart. I could see arguing that storm or cloud giant heritage is too specific, and that you'd only be allowed general giant, but it's clearly listed as a humanoid race.

That seems like a strange choice since nothing in favored enemy talks about race.

It talks about subtype. Some subtypes are also races, but certainly no all of them. There is no "aquatic" race for example, although it is a subtype.

Clearly from some since of the word there is indeed a race of Storm Giants in the Golarion world. That doesn't seem to be the sense that racial heritage is using the term though, I read that is meaning 'playable race'.

I figured the entire purpose of Racial Heritage was so you could integrate monsters and races you aren't typically allowed to play by just putting a drop of their heritage into a human. The same way one would use Eldritch Heritage to gain some, but not all, of the powers a given sorcerer bloodline manifests naturally through level progression.

[Goth Guru]

About vestigial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIP6EwqMEoE