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Are there any rules out there for reducing a shield's armor check penalty? Or perhaps for increasing a fighter's armor training bonuses?
I'm trying to get my tower shield's armor check penalty down to 0. So far I've managed to reduce it by 9, but I don't see how I can do better without gaining three more levels in fighter.
- -3, armor training 3 (8th-level fighter with sash of the war champion)
- -3, Tower Shield Specialist feat* (Armor Master's Handbook)
- -2, darkwood tower shield
- -1, Improved Shield Focus feat (Armor Master's Handbook)
* This feat also allows me to apply the armor training bonuses to the tower shield
I could simply wait three levels and armor training will take care of the penalty for me, but I want to get rid of the penalty entirely at as low a level as possible.
So the Tower Shield Specialist feat effectively doubles the reduction from Armor Training? Nice! I'm looking forward to getting this book.
Wouldn't you get a -3 reduction for a mithral shield instead of the -2 for Darkwood?
So the Tower Shield Specialist feat effectively doubles the reduction from Armor Training? Nice! I'm looking forward to getting this book.
Wouldn't you get a -3 reduction for a mithral shield instead of the -2 for Darkwood?
Tower Shield Specialist doesn't double the reduction from armor training. It lets it benefit from armor training at all. Traditionally, armor training doesn't apply to shields.
Since tower shields are made of wood, they are ineligible for the mithral property. There are one or two specific magic shields made out of mithral out there, but they are much too expensive at this level (and if I was higher level, I wouldn't need them anyways).
Tower Shield Specialist doesn't double the reduction from armor training. It lets it benefit from armor training at all. Traditionally, armor training doesn't apply to shields.So the Tower Shield Specialist feat effectively doubles the reduction from Armor Training? Nice! I'm looking forward to getting this book.
Wouldn't you get a -3 reduction for a mithral shield instead of the -2 for Darkwood?
Ok, then I'm confused. You listed -3 from Armor Training and then another -3 from Tower Shield Specialist. So are you saying that Tower Shield Specialist lets you apply the Armor Training to the shield and then gives you a flat -3 on top of that? That still sounds very nice.
Since tower shields are made of wood, they are ineligible for the mithral property. There are one or two specific magic shields made out of mithral out there, but they are much too expensive at this level (and if I was higher level, I wouldn't need them anyways).
That is interesting. I've never tried to use a tower shield before, so now I've learned something new.
Ok, then I'm confused. You listed -3 from Armor Training and then another -3 from Tower Shield Specialist. So are you saying that Tower Shield Specialist lets you apply the Armor Training to the shield and then gives you a flat -3 on top of that? That still sounds very nice.Tower Shield Specialist doesn't double the reduction from armor training. It lets it benefit from armor training at all. Traditionally, armor training doesn't apply to shields.So the Tower Shield Specialist feat effectively doubles the reduction from Armor Training? Nice! I'm looking forward to getting this book.
Wouldn't you get a -3 reduction for a mithral shield instead of the -2 for Darkwood?
Yes, the feat applies a static 3-point reduction and then ALSO lets you apply the reduction from Armor Training on top of that. That's why I said the problem would go away on its own in a few levels, but I want to see if I can get rid of the entire penalty at level 8 (which is the earliest I can get all the necessary feats).
Can you use the Tower Shield Specialist archetype from Ultimate Combat? I know it gives up Weapon Training, which is a big hit, but it does what you are trying to do.
There's a bit too much overlap for my taste, plus losing weapon training is practically as bad as taking a penalty to his attacks. It also doesn't help that burst barrier doesn't really function as written; burst effects are already stopped by total cover.
The fifth level ability does negate the -2 to attacks from using the tower shield, so it's as good as weapon training 1&2 as far as the to hit roll goes.
Tower Shield Specialist (Ex): At 5th level, when a tower shield specialist employs a tower shield in combat, he does not take the –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
The fifth level ability does negate the -2 to attacks from using the tower shield, so it's as good as weapon training 1&2 as far as the to hit roll goes.
** spoiler omitted **
I was referring to the penalty from Shield Brace. It lets you use a two-handed polearm or spear with your tower shield, but you take a penalty to attacks equal to the armor check penalty of the shield.
That's the penalty I'm trying to mitigate. I've already found multiple ways of getting rid of the generic -2 penalty of tower shields.
Then I would try to make it mithral based on there being several mithral and even steel tower shields listed in the magic items of various books.
Perhaps take Master Craftsman and Craft Arms & Armor to make your own shield at half price?
That would work fine if I could count on having a lenient GM willing to fudge the rules.
How much would a mithral tower shield even weigh? Surely it would not be lighter than its wooden counterpart!
The Equalizer Shield (+1 Mithral Tower Shield) from Champions of Purity weighs 23 lbs
The Force Tower (+1 arrow deflection ghost touch mithral tower shield) from Ultimate Equipment weighs 22 lbs.
The Guard of Man (+2 Spell Resistance [13] tower shield) from Inner Sea Combat is described as "a metal bulwark" and weighs 45 lbs., if made of mithral is would be 22.5 lbs.
The Spellbane Shield (+2 tower shield) from Melee Tactics Toolbox is only "iron-covered" and weighs 45 lbs.
So not even the game developers really know whhat it should weigh. lol.
Not really possible. Even with houserules for mithril tower shields and levels in fighter you can only get it low, not zero.
Tower shields are ridiculously bulky, and heavy. They should have a massive ACP.
So not even the game developers really know whhat it should weigh. lol.
I suspect it's because they would need to create a steel analog to base it on, and the thing would be too damm heavy to use properly.
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There are a number of traits (e.g. Armor Expert, Sargavan Guard, Serpent Runner) which reduce ACP by 1, but they specify that this is for armor. Not clear if it would apply to the Tower Shield penalty.
Ditto the 'Effortless Armor' (up to ACP -5) and 'Lighten Object' spells.
Like mithral, noqual reduces ACP by 3... but expensive and might not be available for a tower shield.
The Phalanx Soldier fighter archetype has some reductions, but at the expense of armor training. Tower Shield Specialist archetype was already mentioned.
So not a lot out there prior to Armor Master's Handbook.
Not really possible. Even with houserules for mithril tower shields and levels in fighter you can only get it low, not zero.
Tower shields are ridiculously bulky, and heavy. They should have a massive ACP.
The build I posted in the first post already shows how you can get it to 0. So far, it just requires you to be an 11th-level fighter with all of the things in the OP.
I'm trying to accomplish it at 8th.
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Another possibility; there is a 'Comfort' enchantment in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide which reduces ACP by 1. However, it isn't clear if it can be applied to shields or only armor.
Also, if you have a 'strict RAW' GM, the wording of the Tower Shield Specialist feat technically separates the armor training requirement from the 'can apply ACP modifications to shields' benefit. That is, as written, the feat doesn't limit you to the armor training modifications... you could theoretically take any ACP modification that normally applies to armor and use it for your shield.
Also, if you have a 'strict RAW' GM, the wording of the Tower Shield Specialist feat technically separates the armor training requirement from the 'can apply ACP modifications to shields' benefit. That is, as written, the feat doesn't limit you to the armor training modifications... you could theoretically take any ACP modification that normally applies to armor and use it for your shield.
Holy smokes you might be right about that.
just curious, what are you other ways of mitigating the -2 to hit that's just normal with tower shield use ?
The Mobile Bulwark style line of feats (Armor Master's Handbox) negates the penalty. There's also the archetype mentioned earlier in the thread from Ultimate Combat.
I feel like there was at least one other option out there, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.
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While the lack of normal mithral tower shields in RAW-only play has been established, making a tower shield out of noqual (a special material lacking the verbiage regarding not affecting items being made primarily out of wood) will work if you are willing to shell out the hefty price increase. +2000 for the base material, and an additional +5000 when you first enchant the item. The benefit is +2 vs spells, +2 additional max dex, and 1 better armor check penalty. There are much cheaper ways to get these benefits but if you are interested in the thematic aspect this is the way to do it.
So basically, you can out-badly-written-rules a RAW weenie with some other badly written rules if you are willing to pay the gold for it.