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For those unaware of the Player Companion: Blood of Shadows, it has a combat style feat tree, Blinded Blade Style.
You hold no fear of blindness, as your other senses improve without the distractions of sight.
Prerequisites: Blind-Fight, Perception 5 ranks.
Benefit: While you are using this style, you gain a number of benefits whenever you are blinded or unable to see (including when you wear a blindfold or close your eyes). Under such circumstances, you do not take any penalties on Strength- or Dexterity-based skill checks due to blindness. In addition, you gain a +4 bonus on hearing- and smell-based Perception checks and gain the scent special ability with a range of 10 feet; if you already have scent, the range of your scent ability increases by 10 feet instead. Having this feat counts as having 10 ranks in Perception for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of the Improved Blind-Fight feat, as well as any feat that lists Improved Blind-Fight as a prerequisite.
Your lack of sight enables you to strike your foes with uncanny precision.
Prerequisites: Blinded Blade Style, Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, Perception 10 ranks.
Benefit: While you are using Blinded Blade Style and you are blinded or unable to see, you do not need to succeed at Perception checks to pinpoint the location of creatures within reach of your melee weapon, or your unmodified reach if you are not wielding a melee weapon. This ability functions like blindsense, except creatures you cannot see do not gain total concealment against you. Having this feat counts as having 15 ranks in Perception for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of the Greater Blind-Fight feat, as well as any feat that lists Greater Blind-Fight as a prerequisite.
Your skill at arms while unable to see is astounding.
Prerequisites: Blind-Fight, Blinded Blade Precision (clarified to supposed to be Blinded Competence), Blinded Blade Style, Greater Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, Perception 15 ranks.Benefit: While you are using Blinded Blade Style and you are blinded or unable to see, your ability to pinpoint creatures’ locations using Blinded Competence improves to function like blindsight rather than blindsense, and the range increases to 30 feet. In addition, you add half your character level to the DCs of Bluff checks to feint you in combat.
Now on to the questions!
1) What action would it be to close one's eyes to benefit from Blinded Blade Style? Or for that matter, what's also the action to open eyes to see again and losing benefits of the feats?
Typically, it's a swift action to enter a style stance. Blinded Blade Style has a requirement that one needs to be "blinded or unable to see (including when you wear a blindfold or close your eyes)". Since I'm hoping for using this style in PFS, permanent blindness isn't really an option I want to entertain every scenario, so will resort to closed eyes.
A free action seems too good, if one can say you're blinking repeatedly for semi-constant scent/blindsense/blindsight AND vision? Bleh.
A swift action, maybe even the one used to enter the style? Would have the limit of once a round built in and costing a future potential immediate action.
Sean K Reynolds suggested a move action back in 2010, but I'm not sure if that's applicable for PFS or what the writers of Blood of Shadows was thinking. Anything longer than a move (standard and longer) seems too long to be practical and I'm hoping it's not the case.
2) Do the benefits of blindsense from Blinded Competence and the blindsight from Blinded Master work only on to sense/perceive creatures? Or could they also be used to detect surrounding features or objects, like furniture or walls or traps or giant pit in the ground?
Blindsense in the PRD states working on creatures and a casual reference to noticing "things":
Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
Blindsight doesn't specify creatures only, but that the one can operate effectively without vision, so I'm guessing it works for creatures and non-creatures?
Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can't see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.
- Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
- Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
- Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures that use blindsight.
- Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
- Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
- Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.
I'm currently hoping that since the original blindsense would arguably allow a bat (low-light vision and blindsense 20 ft) to navigate around in a pitch-black dark cave, yet doesn't mention objects or walls, that blindsense would work to detect non-creatures, and by extension, so would the blindsense from Blinded Competence and the blindsight from Blinded Master.
If they're only working on creatures, then I guess it'll be even more important to find out what action it'll take to open and close eyes to switch back and forth normal vision and the feats' blindsense/blindsight if I hope to combat invisible creatures while also needing to navigate around difficult terrain, plain-to-see bear traps laid down on the floor, tables, stairs, cliffs, tunnel walls, lava pools, acid pits, fragile artifacts on pedestals, etc.3) Does the +4 bonus to smell-based Perception checks stack with scent's "+8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent" (from Perception skill description)?
I'm inclined to say yes since they're both unnamed bonuses, and the +4 is to specifically balance out with the blinded penalties and scent is a separate bonus.
However I could see the argument that the +4 bonus to smell-based Perception checks IS the feat's weaker version of scent's bonus to Perception. Since the feat only grants 10 ft instead of the normal 30 ft standard of scent, maybe the bonus is smaller?
4) What sense does the blindsense or blindsight from Blinded Competence/Master rely on? Is it hearing? Smell? Unspecified and thus can't be specifically targeted to negate the blindsense/blindsight?
Blindsight says that "deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing." If the Blinded Blade Style's blindsense/blindsight relies on hearing, then a silence spell or thunderstone can totally mess up a Blinded Blade Style PC.
If it's smell, then not only would the Negate Aroma spell would bypass scent, but the others too right? And a non-water breathing creature probably wouldn't be able to use blindsense/blindsight underwater if scent doesn't work there.
That's all the questions I got for now; will probably have more later.
Apologies if the post is very long. I'm trying to get it as clear as I can the first time.
1. Not mentioned as being an action to take. That being said, I'd rule it to function as a Free Action, or perhaps an Immediate Action. Consult your GM on how he'd rule this, but that'd probably be the most common.
2. If you are blinded, you must make a Perception check to normally perceive which square they are in.
With Blindsense:
Blindsense lets a creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
You don't need a Perception check to see if they're within your melee range, you just know. You still suffer the whole "I can't see" problems with Total Concealment, being denied your Dexterity, etc.
With Blindsight:
Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can't see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.
You can perceive things as far as 30 feet without actually seeing, meaning you count as having normal vision of 30 feet (without being able to read unless it's through touch, via Braille), and positive or negative effects dependant upon vision (Blur, Displacement, Mirror Images, Invisibility, etc). do not affect you in any way.
3. Technically, it does, as it's not the same source. One is from the feat, the other is from acquiring a Scent ability. Two sources of untyped bonuses to the same subject matter stacks.
4. Re-read the Blindsight entry for possible examples. As you mentioned Daredevil, that character has an extreme sense of hearing (as he can hear heartbeats and such from down a street block, as well as voices through thick walls). The Blindsight entry also mentions taste, touch, etc.
2. If you are blinded, you must make a Perception check to normally perceive which square they are in.
With Blindsense:
Blindsense lets a creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.You don't need a Perception check to see if they're within your melee range, you just know. You still suffer the whole "I can't see" problems with Total Concealment, being denied your Dexterity, etc.
With Blindsight:
Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can't see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.You can perceive things as far as 30 feet without actually seeing, meaning you count as having normal vision of 30 feet (without being able to read unless it's through touch, via Braille), and positive or negative effects dependant upon vision (Blur, Displacement, Mirror Images, Invisibility, etc). do not affect you in any way.
For question 2, I was more asking if the blindsense/blindsight from the feats would work to detect objects or environment features such as a chair being adjacent (with blindsense) or a pit in the ground 20 ft away with blindsight, because the feats only refer to saying "creatures", much like the it does for blindsense's description. I wondering if that was an omission by accident because that's how blindsense is written up, or purposeful.
Just noticed that from the Universal Monster Rules the blindsight entry has an extra line: "the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object." So the general blindsight can definitely discern objects. I'm asking/hoping if the Blinded Master blindsight also can detect objects.
1) closing or opening your eyes most likely falls into the "not an action" category, so you can do it any time, with no cost at all.
2) those bonuses work even for objects; the line after that just says that they notice creatures in that range without a check. So yes, you can notice objects using blindsense.
3) Yes those bonuses should stack
4) the description says it enhances your other senses, so it probably uses every sense besides sight to help locate. So unless all of them are incapacitated, you're probably fine.
I don't see why it can't. I mean, if you need a Perception check to determine if a creature is in X space, the same can be done to determine if an object is in X space.
@ thewastedwalrus: I wouldn't necessarily allow it to work that way. The problem with that is the amount of cheese you can expect with it. You'll have a PC play blind against an opponent with Blur and Mirror Images, and then be able to ignore the drawbacks of being hit with, say, a Fireball. You're basically giving them the benefits of being able to see blind without any of the drawbacks of being blind, something that I don't think would fly at most tables.
I mean, I suppose that's the entire purpose of those feats (having the option to fight blindly and not completely suck at it), but again, I don't see a lot of tables running it that way.
Also, that feat chain is ridiculous to take. For starters, it can't even be started until 5th level, the secondary feat at 9th, and the tertiary at 13th, at the earliest for a normal character.
With generic Combat Bonus Feats (such as Fighter), it'll accelerate the progress to acquiring all feats by 9th level, all of that to acquire the ability to not absolutely suck when being Blinded, and its effectiveness is left to the leniency of the GM and how he'd handle the action economy (a lot of them would probably say Free Action).
There are much better things to spend 6 feats on (and better ways to counter being Blinded).
I don't see why it can't. I mean, if you need a Perception check to determine if a creature is in X space, the same can be done to determine if an object is in X space.
@ thewastedwalrus: I wouldn't necessarily allow it to work that way. The problem with that is the amount of cheese you can expect with it. You'll have a PC play blind against an opponent with Blur and Mirror Images, and then be able to ignore the drawbacks of being hit with, say, a Fireball. You're basically giving them the benefits of being able to see blind without any of the drawbacks of being blind, something that I don't think would fly at most tables.
I mean, I suppose that's the entire purpose of those feats (having the option to fight blindly and not completely suck at it), but again, I don't see a lot of tables running it that way.
Also, that feat chain is ridiculous to take. For starters, it can't even be started until 5th level, the secondary feat at 9th, and the tertiary at 13th, at the earliest for a normal character.
With generic Combat Bonus Feats (such as Fighter), it'll accelerate the progress to acquiring all feats by 9th level, all of that to acquire the ability to not absolutely suck when being Blinded, and its effectiveness is left to the leniency of the GM and how he'd handle the action economy (a lot of them would probably say Free Action).
There are much better things to spend 6 feats on (and better ways to counter being Blinded).
Yea, I have no idea what anyone was thinking for this feat chain.
It doesn't actually let you DO anything. If you are going to go around blindfolded there should be an advantage to doing so at least on par with other Style feats. Probably even a bit better with how expensive the chain is.
I don't see why it can't. I mean, if you need a Perception check to determine if a creature is in X space, the same can be done to determine if an object is in X space.
@ thewastedwalrus: I wouldn't necessarily allow it to work that way. The problem with that is the amount of cheese you can expect with it. You'll have a PC play blind against an opponent with Blur and Mirror Images, and then be able to ignore the drawbacks of being hit with, say, a Fireball. You're basically giving them the benefits of being able to see blind without any of the drawbacks of being blind, something that I don't think would fly at most tables.
I mean, I suppose that's the entire purpose of those feats (having the option to fight blindly and not completely suck at it), but again, I don't see a lot of tables running it that way.
Also, that feat chain is ridiculous to take. For starters, it can't even be started until 5th level, the secondary feat at 9th, and the tertiary at 13th, at the earliest for a normal character.
With generic Combat Bonus Feats (such as Fighter), it'll accelerate the progress to acquiring all feats by 9th level, all of that to acquire the ability to not absolutely suck when being Blinded, and its effectiveness is left to the leniency of the GM and how he'd handle the action economy (a lot of them would probably say Free Action).
There are much better things to spend 6 feats on (and better ways to counter being Blinded).
Eh, taking a 50% miss chance versus someone with some images up usually isn't a great idea, but I see your point. But I just cant see how opening or closing your eyes could possibly take so much time as to not be considered "not an action". I mean, it's just that, opening or closing your eyes.
And I don't really know if it's that bad. If you plan on taking these feats, you are probably planning on playing most of your combats with your eyes closed for these feats. In order for these feats to be "good", you would essentially have to build the entire character around eliminating the penalties and getting as many bonuses as you can for being blinded. But I do agree; there are better ways to counter blindness and much better feats to take.
Well it's all for a prospective rebuild of a level 6 playtest vigilante.
Hoping to get Blinded Master by level 8 with a feat retrain at level 6 to get Blinded Competence early so I can start pinpointing invisible creatures adjacent or further away if I'm holding a whip, right off the bat without having to worry about is chance. Even picked up headband of the wolf to enhance Blinded Blade Style's scent range to 20 ft.
Is it a lot of feats? Sure. But already picked up Fist of the Avenger & Rooftop Infiltrator (for climb speed) talents and Power Attack feat so I feel I got enough damage covered (can always two hand a weapon if unarmed ain't cutting it), and climb speed seems realfun and useful (well I can dang well ensure it is).
Playing PFS martial class against assortment of invisible targets and deeper darkness and fog/smoke concealment and gaze attack spamming creatures can be a real luck of the draw situation hoping a party member's got the right equipment/spell to help out. This seems as fun as anything else I'd get to try in PFS.
I'm hoping to narrow down the action economy and what I can and can't autodetect with the feats to finalize the build if I'm gonna bother or not.
A Whip has a reach of 15 feet, but only threatens 10 feet, and plus requires a fair bit of investment to make into a (fairly) powerful weapon of choice. It's like the melee version of a Crossbow, except the Whip can actually be powerful with the right build. Crossbows are just functional.
Anyway, the feat breakdown is simple:
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Blind Style: No penalties to Strength and Dexterity skill checks for being blind. You receive a +4 bonus on Perception checks relying on hearing and smell, as well as the scent ability (10 feet), whose distance stacks with other scent abilities.
You must still make Perception checks to detect which square enemies are in (though the Scent ability allows you to automatically detect which square an adjacent creature is in), and you still suffer all other penalties related to the Blinded condition.
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Blind Competence: You no longer need to make Perception checks to detect which square enemies are in as long as they are in your melee range, as the Blindsense special ability. Creatures don't get Total Concealment if you can't see them.
This is perhaps about as useless a feat tax as Combat Expertise. It's actually worse because, unless you have a reach weapon, your Scent already does this same exact thing for you, and quite frankly all Blindsense does is eliminate the need for a check, and the factor that you don't get Total Concealment from an enemy you can't see (even though they're already perceived normally from the range you can attack from, meaning no concealment anyway) is damn near useless and impractical.
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Blind Master: You gain Blindsight 30 feet, and add half your character level to the DC required to feint you while blinded.
The factor that you need over 5 feats and 15 ranks in Perception to gain something like this is pathetic, especially considering Improved and Greater Blind-Fight are actually weaker versions of this very feat (and become invalidated by the time you acquire it), and not to mention are invalidated by a very expensive (but almost invaluable) magic item.
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To me, this feat chain, for it to be worthwhile, needs to have its benefits revamped.
I would've consolidated the first and second set of feats to the first feat in the chain, I would've placed the third feat in the second feat in the chain, and then for the third feat, I'd implement the ability to perceive all subject matter, even incorporeal and ethereal, as well as make your Blindsight distance equal to your normal vision (if any), otherwise it is doubled to 60 feet.
I'd also probably get rid of the Perception rank requirements or tie them with being fulfilled with BAB requirements, as well as adjust the Blind-Fight feats up a step (removing Greater Blind-Fight entirely), because not being able to do this at ~5th level at the earliest (as a Fighter), or to be more practical, 7th or 9th level (the time when most Style feat chains can come online), and having to wait until 11th or 13th level (by this point PFS is practically over) for these feats to actually do something is just ridiculous.
I mean, having requirements for this stuff so that not everyone can take it is fine, but making it so that characters who optimize specifically for it can't feasibly make this feat chain work until 3/4 of their character's adventuring career is over is absolutely stupid, especially when there's no "It's overpowered" card to be thrown here.
A Whip has a reach of 15 feet, but only threatens 10 feet, and plus requires a fair bit of investment to make into a (fairly) powerful weapon of choice. It's like the melee version of a Crossbow, except the Whip can actually be powerful with the right build. Crossbows are just functional.
I'm not using the whip to threate, I'm using its reach for increased range on blindsense via Blinded Competence since it doesn't require the character to actually threaten anything for the range.
Anyway, the feat breakdown is simple:Blind Style: No penalties to Strength and Dexterity skill checks for being blind. You receive a +4 bonus on Perception checks relying on hearing and smell, as well as the scent ability (10 feet), whose distance stacks with other scent abilities.
You must still make Perception checks to detect which square enemies are in (though the Scent ability allows you to automatically detect which square an adjacent creature is in), and you still suffer all other penalties related to the Blinded condition.
Yup.
Throw in Improved Blind-Fight.
Benefit: Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment. You may still reroll your miss chance percentile roll for total concealment. If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker within 30 feet, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.
Blind Competence: You no longer need to make Perception checks to detect which square enemies are in as long as they are in your melee range, as the Blindsense special ability. Creatures don't get Total Concealment if you can't see them.
This is perhaps about as useless a feat tax as Combat Expertise. It's actually worse because, unless you have a reach weapon, your Scent already does this same exact thing for you, and quite frankly all Blindsense does is eliminate the need for a check, and the factor that you don't get Total Concealment from an enemy you can't see (even though they're already perceived normally from the range you can attack from, meaning no concealment anyway) is damn near useless and impractical.
As explained in Ultimate Intrigue with Perception and Imprecise Senses:
So even with scent or normal blindsense, one still has miss change even when the either of the two senses have pinpointed the adjacent invisible enemy.
Blinded Competence treats usual blindsense total concealment miss chance as less than total concealment, and Improved Blind-Fight (obtained earlier) lets one ignore the miss chance of less than total concealment. So Improved Blind-Fight wasn't invalidated, though Blinded Competence did invalidate Greater Blind-Fight somewhat (Greater Blind-Fight at this point does seem like a wasted feat in the whole chain).
The factor that you need over 5 feats and 15 ranks in Perception to gain something like this is pathetic, especially considering Improved and Greater Blind-Fight are actually weaker versions of this very feat (and become invalidated by the time you acquire it), and not to mention are invalidated by a very expensive (but almost invaluable) magic item.
You don't need that many ranks in Perception. You only need 5 ranks for the whole feat chain. The feat chain allows one to bypass the Perception rank prereqs past Blinded Blade Style entirely.
Blinded Blade Style = 10 Perception ranks for Improved Blind-Fight prereq and feats that have Improved Blind-Fight as a prereq, which Blinded Competence does.Blinded Competence = 15 Perception ranks for Greater Blind-Fight prereqs and feats that have Greater Blind-Fight as a prereq, which Blinded Master does.
So a fighter or avenger vigilante could get it all by level 9, or level 7 or 8 if retraining some earlier unneeded feats.
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Actually if you take a dip into MoMs monk, you can pick up the first, Blinded Blade Style for free, and then progress through the feat chain without ever putting a rank into perception at all.
This also has you finish the chain, MoMs 1, fighter 2 in 3 levels if your human. MoMs also gives the Imp unarmed strike, giving you the Dare Devil feel of beating a dude to death.
1st lvl Human
Blinded Blade Style, Blind Fight, Improved Blind Fight
2nd fighter
Blinded Competence
3rd fighter
Greater Blind Fight, Blinded Master
Want to get real Dare Devil like? Ascetic Style to get a monk weapon to work at Monk unarmed damage power, Fighter gets weapon training, select monk weapons, bam all monk weapons are crazy damage. Quarter Staff, Tonfa, Dan Bong all fit Dare Devils weapons.
Actually if you take a dip into MoMs monk, you can pick up the first, Blinded Blade Style for free, and then progress through the feat chain without ever putting a rank into perception at all.
Excellent point! More things to think about for the rebuild!
Actually, does the first feat let you skip to take the last:
"Having this feat counts as having 10 ranks in Perception for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of the Improved Blind-Fight feat, as well as any feat that lists Improved Blind-Fight as a prerequisite."
So by having the first feat, you qualify for all of them.
Thus, you don't to wait till high level. You can have all of them by 9th.
5th level: Take Blinded Blade Style
7th: Take either Blinder Competence, you qualify already due to Blinded Blade Style, I quoted why.
9th: Take Blinded Master.
Why does it even have a Perception rank listed if they all let you ignore it?
Sorry had to edit my post as I thought of all the rest of that after i hit the post button :)
Actually if you take a dip into MoMs monk, you can pick up the first, Blinded Blade Style for free, and then progress through the feat chain without ever putting a rank into perception at all.
This also has you finish the chain, MoMs 1, fighter 2 in 3 levels if your human. MoMs also gives the Imp unarmed strike, giving you the Dare Devil feel of beating a dude to death.
1st lvl Human
Blinded Blade Style, Blind Fight, Improved Blind Fight
2nd fighter
Blinded Competence
3rd fighter
Greater Blind Fight, Blinded MasterWant to get real Dare Devil like? Ascetic Style to get a monk weapon to work at Monk unarmed damage power, Fighter gets weapon training, select monk weapons, bam all monk weapons are crazy damage. Quarter Staff, Tonfa, Dan Bong all fit Dare Devils weapons.
Impressive. I didn't consider MoMS, though losing Flurry of Blows can be a killer loss if you went UCMonk.
If you go regular Monk though, it's certainly powerful (and probably worth it). With MoMS, you could pick up Power Attack at 4th level, and then proceed to Dragon Ferocity to get 1.5x Strength on all your unarmed attacks. If you later pick up Ascetic Style, you get 1.5x Strength on all attacks made with Monk weapons due to Improved Unarmed Strike synergy.
Thanks all! Alrighty, so it looks like:
1) No conclusion.
2) Blinded Competence and Blinded Master would allow a PC to also detect objects along with creatures. General consensus seems to be that creatures was referred to in the abilities specifically so that one knows what to do for combat rules.
3) The scent's +8 to Percepton to smell and Blinded Blade Style's +4 bonus to smell-based Perception checks ought to stack.
4) The blindsense and blindsight from the feat tree is relying on several senses since a specific one wasn't mentioned so I won't have to worry about an individual tactic neutralizing it. Well besides Dampen Presense feat, but that's what scent is for I guess.
For 1) I'm still not convinced the open/close eyes would be a free action. I feel that in order to get the benefits of the feats, closing eyes to focus senses ought to some action economy, otherwise blinking back and forth between open and closed eyes would get me benefits of the feats and regular vision in the same round too easily which seems to go against the spirit of the feats. I'll suggest to GMs swift or move action for now. Hopefully something like this can get clarified better now that they've introduced a combat style around it.
Master of Many Style, or I guess Unarmed Fighter archetypes level dips definitely seem the most efficient ways to get the feat tree. Will have to consider it in the future. For now will stick with the vigilante levels as I've enjoyed playing it and wanting to benefit from all the social talents if I wanna keep using the Playtest Chronicle boons I earned while trying out some new vigilante talents.
Dropping prone is a free action. Go ahead and stand up from your desk and drop into a prone position. Now stand back up and close your eyes. Which one takes longer and requires more effort?
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I'd definitely have it be a free action to open or close your eyes.
This isn't quite as permissive as it sounds since free actions can only be taken on your turn, thus meaning you have to choose whether they're open or closed at the end of your turn, which will have some consequences either way.
Closing your eyes is referenced in gaze attacks. It has no action type attached to it. It is likely a no-action just like 5-foot steps and attacks of opportunity. It definitely should not becomone a swift action just because someone created this feat chain.
Hmm ok. If free action I guess I could freely interchange between normal vision or enhanced non-visual senses during my turn, like maybe open eyes for movement towards distant ranged attacker, blinking repeatedly to ensure not walking into invisible attacker ambush. By end of the turn I gotta stick with one as no free actions outside my turn, open eyes vs distant ranged attackers present, closed eyes if aware of invisible enemies around. Works for me.
Averting your eyes is referenced in gaze attacks. It has no action type attached to it. It is likely a no-action just like 5-foot steps and attacks of opportunity. It definitely should not becomone a swift action just because someone created this feat chain.
FTFY.
Averting your eyes is not the same as wearing a Blindfold, much less closing your eyes entirely. Although somewhat similar, the point here is that the averting of eyes only affects how the PC interacts with the creature that possesses the Gaze attack (whereas other creatures are treated as normal), whereas closing your eyes has much stronger effects, and alters how you interact with every creature.
Also note that averting your eyes is something specific to Gaze Attacks, and isn't a general activity you can take in every-day combat. This means that the specifics of Gaze Attacks and a PCs interactions with it have no impact as to how a PC should generally be able to alter their sight in combat.
I thought it was closing your eyes not averting. I guess I misremembered.
In that case we need an FAQ on closing your eyes since it also affects mirror image, and it is a tactic used to deal with 50% chances of not hitting the target vs whatever mirror image gives.
Yes a FAQ! Anyone have any experience phrasing one that gets clicks?
I agree that averting/closing your eyes shouldn't be an action, or at worst a free action, but getting the benefits of style feats always takes a swift action (barring MoMS benefits) for the benefits to apply, unless otherwise stated. I think that including the closed eyes wording alongside blindfolded as examples may have been a decision with unintended consequences.
Nowhere in the feat chain does it say you can gain the benefits of this style with anything less than the usual swift action for style feats. I think you have to assume the swift is going to be necessary, even if you're just closing your eyes. I would think of it more as a "close your eyes, relaxing exhale, focus" than just "closing your eyes" would usually imply.
Yes a FAQ! Anyone have any experience phrasing one that gets clicks?
Yes, I will start one and put a link here. This one is pretty straight forward so it should be easy for them to understand, but that still does not guarantee a quick response.
I agree that averting/closing your eyes shouldn't be an action, or at worst a free action, but getting the benefits of style feats always takes a swift action (barring MoMS benefits) for the benefits to apply, unless otherwise stated. I think that including the closed eyes wording alongside blindfolded as examples may have been a decision with unintended consequences.
Nowhere in the feat chain does it say you can gain the benefits of this style with anything less than the usual swift action for style feats. I think you have to assume the swift is going to be necessary, even if you're just closing your eyes. I would think of it more as a "close your eyes, relaxing exhale, focus" than just "closing your eyes" would usually imply.
Usually the swift action is done once, you stay in the style for rest of combat unless you spend another swift action to switch to another style. So even with eyes open, you're in the style but not benefiting from anything, much like how one enters Crane Style once with a swift action but not fighting defensively or using total defense so the style feats aren't doing anything yet.
Link to FAQ on opening or closing your eyes.
Awesome! Hopefully it won't take several years for a response.
Usually the swift action is done once, you stay in the style for rest of combat unless you spend another swift action to switch to another style. So even with eyes open, you're in the style but not benefiting from anything, much like how one enters Crane Style once with a swift action but not fighting defensively or using total defense so the style feats aren't doing anything yet.I agree that averting/closing your eyes shouldn't be an action, or at worst a free action, but getting the benefits of style feats always takes a swift action (barring MoMS benefits) for the benefits to apply, unless otherwise stated. I think that including the closed eyes wording alongside blindfolded as examples may have been a decision with unintended consequences.
Nowhere in the feat chain does it say you can gain the benefits of this style with anything less than the usual swift action for style feats. I think you have to assume the swift is going to be necessary, even if you're just closing your eyes. I would think of it more as a "close your eyes, relaxing exhale, focus" than just "closing your eyes" would usually imply.
I was going to say that I'm not so sure about that for this particular style feat, but having reread it (I hate it when my actual job interferes with whatever I'd rather be doing), I agree with you completely.
Pop the swift to enter the style, and then it applies whenever you can't see. So, yeah, closing your eyes and opening your eyes...if averting your eyes is not an action then neither should be closing your eyes, but for PFS purposes it isn't defined and that opens it up to all sorts of weird scenarios and player/GM arguments. "I totally see that rock coming in from 120' away! My eyes are open. Oh, I get an AOO on this blurred and mirror imaged elf with a bow next to me? Cool, my eyes are shut now...but I still know that giant threw the boulder...and I need to confirm that crit against the elf..."
Can someone explain to me how the 2nd feat in the chain is better than the first feat. I know it says that the enemy does not get total concealment, but it also does not say if that means it still has concealment(20% miss chance) or something else.
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Blinded Competence says the enemy's doesn't get total concealment, so that must means they get less than total concealment.
Blinded Competence's prerequisite Improved Blind-Fight allows one's "melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment."
So by Blinded Competence, there's no more concealment miss chance for melee attacks (except for specific cases). So sucks to be the invisible/mirror imaged/hiding in darkness/displaced/blurred creatures. Creatures with blink and ethereal are fine though because of whole other rules of "not actually being there to get hit in the face" when the attack comes.
That totally negates Greater Blind-Fight's "Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment, and you treat opponents with total concealment as if they had normal concealment (20% miss chance instead of 50%)."
But Greater Blind-Fight still has the "If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks, regardless of the range. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible."
Of course pinpointing enemy at greater range than Blinded Competence's blindsense can be an issue until Blinded Master's blindsight 30 ft. Blindsight essentially makes Greater Blind-Fight worthless within 30 ft. Greater Blind-Fight would only be still useful if one can pinpoint enemies beyond 30 ft to keep Dexterity bonus to AC from ranged attacks.
Overall I feel that Greater Blind-Fight becomes the biggest feat tax in the whole tree since it becomes mostly negated by earlier and later feat.
Sorry for rezzing this thread, but I have a question on the wording for what you "actually" get with the first feat.
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
The creature cannot see.It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any),and takes a –4 penalty onmost Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and onopposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character.Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone.Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. Miss chance against all attackers can be rerolled once to determine if you hit or not. Scent to a range of 10'(able to pinpoint creatures within 5' automatically as a Move Action). +4 to Perception checks based on hearing and smell (for a total of +0 since you still get the -4 to all opposed Perception checks?)
Is all this right or are there some assumptions I didn't make, or synergies I didn't take into account?
So you could spend a Move Action to identify which adjacent square an enemy was in using Scent, then Standard Action attack them, rolling the 50% miss chance twice to see if you hit?
Without any other Feats or abilities you couldn't apply precision based damage (like Sneak Attack) with this attack correct? Due to concealment?
Scent to a range of 10'(able to pinpoint creatures within 5' automatically as a Move Action).
You get scent up to 10 feet. If a creature is adjacent, they're pinpointed automatically without an action needed. The move action is for figuring out direction if creature isn't adjacent.
Scent to a range of 10'(able to pinpoint creatures within 5' automatically as a Move Action).You get scent up to 10 feet. If a creature is adjacent, their pinpointed automatically without an action needed. The move action is for figuring out direction if creature isn't adjacent.
"Within 5'" is adjacent. Requires a Move Action, but no Perception check right?
"Within 5'" is adjacent. Requires a Move Action, but no Perception check right?Scent to a range of 10'(able to pinpoint creatures within 5' automatically as a Move Action).You get scent up to 10 feet. If a creature is adjacent, their pinpointed automatically without an action needed. The move action is for figuring out direction if creature isn't adjacent.
Doesn't require a move action or a perception check. When a creature is within 5 feet/adjacent to someone with scent, the person with scent knows what square they're on.
The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
Further than adjacent, move action to find out direction. Once it's adjacent, the first sentence of not knowing the creature's "specific location" is voided as they're able to be pinpointed; that won't require an action as it's unstated for the new situation, whereas a move action was necessary for a creature that can't be pinpointed.